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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 573097 times)

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1650 on: March 30, 2015, 07:44:16 pm »

Thanks to mifki, Zarathustra30, expwnent, Knight Otu, LordBaal, RoaryStar, Putnam, Dirst, Heph, Cruxador, Vattic, SimRobert2001, MrWiggles and anybody I missed for helping to answer questions.  Please check just after your question up in the thread if it doesn't appear below!

Quote from: Verdant_Squire
since music/poems/dances seem to be civ specific, will there also be a degree of cultural diffusion where nearby civilizations learn/adopt some of the traditions of their neighbors? It'd be neat if stuff like local cultural regions and stuff would emerge over time in game.

We have the innovations spreading through books and teachers, and we have artists writing books and teaching their students as well, and those students can be from various cultures, but it doesn't have an easy way to go back to the student's town once a student leaves home, since they'll either remain with their troupe or go off to become a noble and not pass on artistic data.  With the festivals I'm working on now, it might be possible to have a broader transfer, but right now it doesn't transfer local forms from one place to another, and I don't have info for adopted forms outside of individual knowledge yet or any form evolution (just the occasion new form).

So at the individual level, we have some diffusion, and we have books that get copied around spreading through the world, but nothing new gets in the bones of the civs yet -- but we're right on the brink and it's not very difficult now to take that step at some point.

Quote from: Charles2531
With the additions of poems now, obviously poems will need to be written on something at some point. Is it right to assume we will see some type of paper industry added into the game, along with actual book production. Have you thought much about how this will be implemented, for example, whether books have to be handwritten or if there will instead be printing presses? Possibility of informational texts that could help dwarves learn new skills (this might be most balanced without printing presses as such books would therefore be time-consuming to produce, and therefore expensive)?
Quote from: Kestrel
If you make libraries available to fortress mode, could they be used to improve dwarf skills like diagnostics and architecture?
Would reading books give some dwarfs a happy thought?
Do different forms of art, music, poetry, and literature have the typical ranges of quality (masterwork, etc.) associated with them?
Quote from: catoblepas
Are there any upcoming plans to include training manuals or something similar for dwarves to train skills with?

We've been fudging books for a while now, and I'm not sure if that's going to change yet.  Depending on how you think of the printing press, it's either before or after the 1400 cutoff it seems, so we could toy around with that later.  Right now, everything is hand-copied in world generation in the libraries.

There are currently no practical skill books.  We need to link innovations to existing skills, and we need more innovations that cover existing skills.  And there's probably room for generic books describing the basic work of professions beyond that, perhaps -- it depends on what a skill means as the knowledge system expands.

I haven't yet associated the typical quality levels to poems, though there are related skills and it might fit to do so, since we already assign skill levels to engravings and so forth.  I'm still messing around with it.

Quote from: crapabear
what kind of experiments are you doing with your test myth generator? Is it something that came up because of the addition of temples, or something that may end up being folded into starting scenarios? What kinds of myths are we talking about, and how crazy can the results get?

These myths are meant to take the world from its starting point (whether that's primordial chaos, or an endless mud flat, or a cosmic egg, or coupled divine beings, or nothingness, or an endless cycle, or whatever), and then bring the story up to the point where the year 1 situation of world generation has solid backing, in terms of the existence of the proto-civs, the land, the megabeasts, the underground, all of it.  Yeah, we started playing with it more seriously because of the upcoming w.g. artifacts and the religious stuff coming for start scenarios, and now we're pretty sure the myth generator will be put in the game either before or during the first w.g. artifact release, since they'll be tied together.  And who knows what else will happen.

I'm not sure how to evaluate the quality of the results -- say, after some stuff happens and we have some freshly created dwarves, the celestial ibis mates with the sun and lays an egg which contains the progenitors of a giant-sized race who all come to reside in their lost city and forge the device which weaves the destiny of the dwarves and the dwarves rebel and break the device and that's why dwarves grow old and die now, or whatever.  It just grinds away and things happen, tossing in different worlds and nature spirits and forces and races and artifacts and second-generation gods and whatever.  At the end there's a kind of overlap where everything is explained (why dwarves die, etc.) but you've also sort of started history -- this leads to questions about whether you'd be able to play in an actual Age of Myth where dwarves don't yet age and the sun doesn't exist, or something.  As usual, the number of options will simply expand over time, and the myths will only be partially used at first.  It leads to lots of interesting relationships that differ from world to world, and we'll try to use those in the ways people talk and what they can do, but it's a large project.

I also tried to experiment a bit with building origin stories from the facts at hand, so it can trace back and find the relevant events and make a paragraph containing only the pertinent bits, so different races might see things differently, but that's all very rough.  There's also the matter of the current "localized" pantheons, and how that will play out when there's actually a unifying correct story is unfortunate, in terms of cultural differences.  We might play around with distortions of the true data, and just having everybody be partially wrong (or everybody is right, in their way), but that's always hard, especially early on when we don't have a good handle on the data structures for correct data.  Lots of options, lots of ways to handle it, and we'll only get to some of them.  We might be approaching the point where we can actually have a nice slider for the simple world gen parameters, in terms of supernaturalness (although dwarves would stay at the lowest setting for a long while yet).

Quote from: Edmus
When engravings and statues can be commissioned, will this extend to being able to demand poets and musicians compose pieces pertaining to specific HFs or events?

It seems within the realm of possibility -- setting up the menu for specifics of the poems would be kind of a nightmare, but sending in one focal point (and materials) is about what we're planning to do for the other artwork, so it should all work together.

Quote from: utunnels
Since there will be taverns, doesn't it mean there will be more units on the map? Is it possible to have more population related settings?

It isn't much different from the merchants that visit you with several units.  Without the start scenarios, the settings for how visitors work will probably be simple and artificial if we have any.  I'm not sure yet exactly how you'll publicize your existence in this first release -- it'll either just happen or be a on/off switch.

Quote from: Farmerbob
Two tavern and mug related questions:

First, have you considered adding 'breaking mugs' as a celebratory tavern activity?  The breaking of the mugs would generate happiness in the craftsdwarf who made the mug, and the breaker of the mug, with the happiness generated being dependent on the craftdwarfship of the mugs?  Dwarves would always collect the best mugs they could from the stockpiles.

Second, have you considered allowing artifact mugs and musical instruments to be added to taverns as part of the décor, increasing the happiness of dwarves that see them in much the same way as levers can be admired?  Perhaps do the same with figurines, jewelry, and scepters in temples?

I haven't considered it at all -- right now a broken masterpiece mug would make the craftsdwarf upset, unless this is an idiom I'm not familiar with.

I'm not sure how the association of objects with taverns will work -- we're going to just get started on the specifics of dwarf mode activities once I polish off festivals.  Certain instruments need to be placed as furniture, and they can be admired.  I'm not sure about other objects -- I haven't done anything with displaying items yet.

Quote from: Andeerz
From what has been shown of the music/poetry style generation so far, it seems like the differences between styles generated by different cultures are all pretty much random.  Is this correct?  And, if so, will this be the case for other kinds of generated knowledge, such as combat styles?  Or will other things factor in?  For example, with music styles, might a culture's exposure to another music style factor into the generation of their own music style, perhaps basing their new style on the other resulting in a style sharing certain features?  For another example with combat styles, will a culture frequently exposed to a specific combat style or enemy generate a combat style geared towards countering the other combat style or particular enemy?

I'm starting with people generating new forms from scratch, because the morphing/influence of forms is more work.  It's certainly doable, but it'll take more time.

Quote from: MaxTM
I could swear I remember seeing you say you wish there were an easier way to switch between fort and adventure modes. Do you have any ideas on how you would be going about this, or when you would be shooting for pushing it out?

There are plenty of ways to think of how it might be, but I don't really like the idea of just being able to become one of the dwarves at any time and then switch back.  It seems like it'd nullify fort obstacles and it would also destroy the autonomy of the selected dwarf and their circle of relations.  So that sort of direct/flippant transfer isn't so high a priority for me.  Something more controlled seems fine, especially when we get to the point of assuming the role of a given historical figure as a beginning for adventure mode.  No schedule as usual.

Quote from: utunnels
Is there a reason why we can't construct most buildings near the edge? We can build floors and draw bridges and use them to seal the map anyway. So why not walls?

It was originally to stop sieges from breaking if I remember, but it is as old as the left-right orientation of the map so it has probably been outmoded in many ways.  I'm hesitant to mess with it.

Quote from: King_of_Baboons
Will it be possible to create or completely change the poetry/religion/combat styles of your civilization while you play Fortress/Adventure Mode?

Will it be finally possible to make acts of profanation or heresy in Adventure Mode?

Will players be able to create their own cults and religions with their own laws and rules?

I don't think you'll have manual control over art/etc. at this point.  Not sure if it'll be related to the ability to further specify item construction jobs from the dev pages.

I don't remember if there's any direct way for you to topple furniture like dwarves do, so it might not work that way.  The rest depends on how dwarf temples evolve and whether or not violence against temple people is recognized, but there might not be any in dwarf mode yet.  I bring that up because the adventure mode mechanics for that will likely be working with whatever happens in dwarf mode.

I'm not going to do any rule setting until the start scenario rewrite guts everything.

Quote from: falcc
What do you see as the long term future of poisons and poison classes? Will there be generated poison classes so various creatures could be immune to one another or susceptible to one another? I know poisoning isn't very Dwarfy, but could creatures gradually develop immunity or cures for various kinds of creature poisons? I'm thinking fish growing immune to anemones, but also adventurers developing poison immunities through controlled exposure.

Yeah, I never got around to doing anything with those classes, but the whole idea was that there'd be groupings for immunity purposes as you describe.  I don't know much about the controlled exposure stuff -- depending on the critter, I've heard everything from that being reasonable to it just causing worse anaphylaxis on repeated exposure.  In general, exposure and so forth are important for our fantasy stuff, and it'll hopefully all be handled in a single system that could be used for whatever syndrome.

Quote from: Novel Scoops
How do you feel about ancient technologies such as Hero's steam engine (62ish AD) and the  Antikythera mechanism (205 BC)?

I don't have strong feelings about them, and a lot of what I've encountered seemed to be speculative.  To the extent that people demonstrate things, we can continue to add innovations.  I think differential gears come up somewhere below.  I don't want to turn DF into a steampunk game, but valid stuff that can be done with steam within the cutoff is fine.  There are some things people might have figured out but didn't for whatever reason, and we'll be leaning away from those.

Quote from: Urist Tilaturist
When will humans finally be able to steal dwarven steel making technology? We could do it by 1400, and we are very good at stealing ideas.

I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that -- we'll have a better idea once reactions can be tied to innovations.  It might be the harder problem to prevent stealing at that point, the way people write things down.

Quote from: Pootis
What's the timeframe for the current release? Will this one be another year+ in development or are we moving towards a more frequent cycle of updates?

We're finishing up the framework/world gen/legends part, and then we have a dwarf and an adventure part to do.  My history of development time estimation indicates that I should not bother trying to guess.  The general idea is to try to do things in smaller chunks.  Pushing recipes and games out of this release and into the next one has been useful.  Now I just need to get through the next two sections without doing anything too extra, and we'll be fine.  The libraries/innovations were the only real sidetrack unrelated to taverns so far, and each of the giant releases have been worse on that score I think.  The multispecies fort stuff is a bit nebulous timewise -- that really depends on how the code cooperates when it is told of its new responsibilities.

Quote from: Knight Otu
That interview does put a new spin on Toady's multi-tile creature experiments. I hadn't expected boats to be on the short list for the fifth spot. That's just boats, and not full vehicles, I assume?

As with other additions, we'll go down the road for a bit and get where we go.  Boats are going to be coded as general moving map sections, which presumably covers giant traps and siege engines as well.  As you say, boats are in many ways the easiest one to do (although a few things about them like sails are harder than, say, a generic moving wall section).

Quote from: Button
Toady, is Needlegrass intended to be Achnatherum, Aristida, Stipa, or another genus?

I don't remember.  The ones that didn't get jotted down in the raws are lost to time.  I don't recall having a preference either.

Quote from: Novel Scoops
Do you look at real "reclaims" for inspiration?

Not really...  the reclaims were one of the first mechanics, and that was just a Moria thing at the time.

Quote from: nonfish
Will dwarven dancing be restricted to taverns? Or could extremely happy dwarves (such as those just completing an artifact or realizing a life goal) spontaneously break out into dance to celebrate?

We're starting with taverns.  We have those celebration dances, but I wasn't thinking of something so spur of the moment at the time...

Quote from: Zarathustra30
Will cats and small children be in danger due to sections punctuated by kicks?

I hope not!

Quote from: WordsandChaos
Would it be possible for dancing to be weaponised/afflicted? I'm thinking along the lines of dancing mania: I have a compelling mental image of the potential for a forgotten beast to coat a Fortress in dust that renders dwarves unable to do anything but dance until dead, or a Pied Piper character who just shows up at the fort and leads Dwarves off the map with their mesmerising music...
Secondly: How do hostiles deal with music? If a Goblin army lays siege to your fort, and your tavern area happens to be throwing an amazing gig, are attackers in ear-shot likely to drop what they're doing and just start rocking out because the bard's got sick flute skills?

It's not possible to do that yet, though I guess it is a step closer now that we have dancing, so that's something.

I think it might actually be possible that the attackers will hear the music and some of them might even be moved to tears by it...  but they can still accommodate their other emotions and motivations, so it wouldn't change the outcome -- combat priorities are pretty high.

Quote from: golemgunk
How does a tavern compare to a dining hall in the mind of a dwarf? If both are available, do they prefer one over the other for their parties or needs?

Also, do songs, dancing, etc. only occur at parties, or will we see people doing them just for fun in their down time?

We're at the cusp of figuring that out -- a dining hall can be part of a tavern, or it can be owned by a specific dwarf, or be its own public place.  We'll have to play around with it a bit to see how the social needs get satisfied -- I'd assume those would default to a tavern, where for a special occasion there might be choices, and some dwarves would prefer the quieter dining hall to eat if they don't have their own room.

There aren't parties in the same way as before now, so the songs etc. will be during down time.  As stuff comes in to replace the old parties, we'll see them there too.  At first, most of the goofing around will probably happen when enough dwarves are together in a spot and they just decide to group up.

Quote from: crapabear
The newest devlog mentions worldgen teacher-student links. Do you think the framework you'll set up for this will end up being the same framework you'll eventually use to model the transfer of other forms of knowledge? Like fighting styles, etc.?

Probably -- the necromancers, artists and scholars all do things with the same link types.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will festivals and competitions continue to occur after initial worldgen?
If so will they be something 'adventurer bards' can take part in?
And following on from that thought, will your fortress be nominated as a potential festival location?

As a kind of capstone to the release when we are at the end of the adventure part, we were hoping to get a festival competition in there, maybe even a prize.  It's up to time considerations at this point.

For fortresses, it's a number-of-critters concern, I suppose, if the festival isn't local.  Depending on how the festivals I'm working on now are coded up for world-gen (there will be several different kinds), we might see some naturally happen for the fort locally, but of course there'd need to be some backing code since it's a played mode with more detail.

Quote from: blazing glory
Will there ever be more ways to capture animals?

He he he, well, you'll probably be able to psychically lasso them from your flying boat in "ever" time.  I don't have a particular plan on this.  I'm not sure when we'll be herding animals and things like that.  I agree that it shouldn't all be traps and cages.  We might have a bit more work on this once you can keep adventure livestock, but I'm not sure.

Quote from: Button
What are your thoughts on putting real-life illicit/illegal drugs in the game? Specifically, I'm expanding the products made from the real-world plants, and I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to add hemp buds and their associated syndrome.

We already have a ton of alcohol in the vanilla game and aren't against adding the drunkenness effects from that, or deleterious long-term physical effects.  I wasn't in a rush to add hemp effects when I added the plant, but I don't have a strong view on that in the game.

Quote from: Novel Scoops
Have you thought about establishing "forts" in cities? I'm thinking anything from walled communities to ghettos to Christians worshipping in the catacombs.

Yeah, it comes up a bit thinking about things -- it would be fun to have some kind of dwarven merchant colony later on.  It's very similar to hill dwarves, though there has to be space made if you have building permission on the surface or sewer levels, which is a little harder since we've only just done a bit with flexibility in structures.  It would be an entertaining scenario, though it wouldn't be able to load much of the city at a time.

Quote from: King_of_Baboons
Does that mean that the "skill system" that we have for jobs and combat will eventually be replaced by a knowledge based system?(a dwarf who did a certain job for his entire life is considered an expert in that area and a dwarf who has been doing a job for 2 months is considered a novice)

Will said knowledge be transferred via family relationships?(Urist's parents teach him how to be a blacksmith/Urist's wife teaches him poetry)

Will dwarves be forced to learn things by themselves?Vanod's home is being constantly harassed by criminals.He decides that he had enough of them and since there are no warriors in his village he starts to train some combat skills by himself by fighting the wild animals that roam nearby his home.

Will vampires/werebeasts and any other night creature that you are planning to add to game be able to marry other night creatures and have vamire/werebeast sons?I feel like this would be a nice alternative for generating new night creatures instead of the very rare profanations and an awesome quest to have in adv mode.

Skills won't be replaced, just complemented -- there's still a large element of practice in everything.  Books should only help with that, not push it aside.

Once we add innovations that span all of the professions, they'll leave the scholarly realm and there will be other knowledge transfer methods.

Self-teaching is the default right now -- in world gen, people join the "hero" professions and pick up skills, and your dwarves eventually learn to do any job you assign them.  Having harder-to-pass gates of entry would be a new thing, and the innovation system might be the way that ends up happening.  At some point, we were also going to add low quality items (if the same system stays in, it would be from -1 to -5 with tasteful adjectives), and this would be what you get from your zero-skill dwarves.  Rising out of that state might not be achievable through practice alone, depending on what's going on.

We had some weird power goal about curses passed through bloodlines.  We'll support it at some point.

Quote from: vjmdhzgr
Are there going to be any entity tokens to customize what types of art forms civilizations get? Like if I want dwarves to only make dances that are really slow, or elves to have mostly fast music. Is speed of music even part of the styles I haven't looked at the dance or music styles since they seemed really complicated. Anyway, there's probably things one might want to customize other than speed.

I mean in the entity. I'm not asking if you can make it physically impossible for goblins to do dwarf dances.

I haven't done specific tokens that customize art forms.  There are a ton of parameters, and I don't even have a basic raw format yet.

Quote from: King_of_Baboons
Will different civs be able to write their own "national anthem" or something like that?

There are commemoration/celebration type songs, and there might be military music, but I don't specifically have generic national anthems.  I'm not sure when that sort of things started up.

Quote from: Novel Scoops
Will musicals have a look in?

I'm not doing anything with plays, though the dances sometimes have portions that act out stories.  Plays are important, and I'm sure we'll get there sometime.  I don't know anything about the development of musicals in particular.

Quote from: Edmus
Do you feel that older art types like engravings require work to bring more in line with these new art forms? Statues and engravings are entirely 'what', whereas poems and books seem to be far more 'how' based.

Yeah, all of the visual arts from sculpture to architecture to engraving (to the ones we are missing completely) don't have any broad stylistic information that we now have for poems, music and dance, and it would be good to understand something like "forms" in a similar way so that cultures can be differentiated and evolve.  We had a clumsy stab at sphere-based temple architecture before, but it needs to be more coherent than that was.

Quote from: Fieari
Will adventurers be able to compose songs, write music, and choreograph dances?  Form a traveling performing troupe of your own?

I'm not sure exactly how it is going to work out in terms of menus and all that, since it could get quite complicated and I'd really like to avoid that right now, but you'll be able to do some basic things.  I'll know more when I dig into the adventure side of things -- just getting tavern maps and visitors up and running will be necessary first, and dwarf mode work will also determine some things first.

Quote from: Ops Fox
Is the work you intend to do on farming with tracking moisture going to be laying the groundwork for some future farming updates that you plan to do or will this probably be your only pass at farming for some time? also do you only intend to track moisture for "dirt" tiles and exclude plain stone so as to minimize computing?

Are you talking about the entry on the development page?  There are more items than moisture in that section.  I'm not sure when or what we'll be doing exactly.

Quote from: Gokajern
What is the effect of art on the world? In a recent devlog it is mentioned that a human created an art form for moral lessons in a gobling civ, does the civ change its moraility based on the poems? Is art right now only for entertainment? Will we ever see the pen being mightier than the sword?

Between art, religion and philosophy, I'm sure we'll see something, probably a touch this time.  Certain philosophy books and certain poetry has specific variable content based on values/ethics, and entity value variables are freed up from the entity definition.  The only thing we lack now are processes which cause something to be influential enough to change the base values.  We have the books and troupes -- we don't have speeches or other social behavior for scholars, aside from taking students.  It might be a bit much to do movements now.  There's a vast periphery now of new possibilities around the recently added features that'll be taken advantage of as we go, in any case.

Quote from: LordBaal
The most recent features add new interactions to the world beyond "stab/rob/eat them" among the races. Indeed your last dev log (03/16/2015) seem to indicate certain easiness on the interaction. I'm simply curious, how a grown up, free human walks to a goblin site door and ask to become an poetry apprentice? What do it takes to survive such endearing quest?

I don't want to be perceived as judgmental or even critic of your work because certainly I haven't earned such rights, and I know DF lore is based but quite different from the standard fantasy setting, however still, don't you think it's a little out of character for goblins to mind about poetry like this?

It's always been like that since we've had populations moving around -- we haven't worried yet about goblins being accepted into human towns, and so forth.  We wanted to have some mixtures instead of complete separation, and there are possible trade links everywhere, instead of a state of total irrevocable war.  The valid issues will be handled to some extent as we go (including issues with the grown-up abducted dwarves and all that).  Right now people can become students of nearby masters that they can reasonably have heard about.

Quote from: palu
Will art forms evolve? For example, musical forms might, over time, change, merge, or even split into two different styles?

It has to be done manually, so to save time I'm just sticking with the from-scratch generators for now.  It's certainly a fair thing to do -- there's some ickiness with slight alterations and delineating when something becomes something else, since the computer doesn't handle half-merged content well.

Quote from: Kogan Loloklam
Will the next release allow religion to inflitrate a civ like poetry?
(referring to the study of poetic elf forms that returned to his civ. Human Seeker of truth finds religion in dwarvish god of hate, and starts a temple in his civ.)

Will 'schools' of (dance/poetry/song/exc.) Attempt to supress divergent styles?
Will religions have style flavors, and if so, can they be declared heretical?
Will religions try to destroy each other and purge megabeast cults and other non-civ religions?
Will favoritism lead to teachers spreading knowledge of rare forms only to their "best student"?
If the previous is true, could that lead to murder?
Mostly I am curious about the kinds of murderous motivations these new changes might add.

Edit: aaaaand updated devlog expanding this train of thought...
Will religions sometimes consider certain knowledge heretical and hold book and/or people burning to supress it?
And if so...
Will religious hit squads(or other 'suppression of knowledge' crews) show up to kidnap tavern patrons or even your own dwarves? And can you choose between giving up or hiding Uristileo possibly risking an inquisition attack and Civil War in your fort?

Nothing so violent yet...  this release isn't really focused on the religious aspects.  We'll get there in two stages with the myth generator and then the religious start scenario framework changes (which will presumably include quite a bit of w.g. framework work to make the start scenarios fit into the world).

We are considering some artist/scholarly antics, though.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1651 on: March 30, 2015, 07:44:55 pm »

Quote from: Heph
So now maths and engineering :P will we get differential gears and banana Spaces?
Generally speaking what are the highest ideas the dorfs or any other civ can come up with?

Differential gears are certainly one of the popular "did they or didn't they" technologies -- just in my quick run through, they were hypothesized in the Greek mechanism as well as the Chinese south-pointing chariot.  I don't remember finding anything definitive online.  I went ahead and made them a difficult tech (and added the pointing chariot and astrarium -- abstractly for now of course).

They can get divergence of the harmonic series and invent a symbol for addition, but no banach spaces.  They can build a theory of rainbows using water-filled spheres and a camera obscura, and they can calculate the height of the atmosphere based on atmospheric refraction using the law of refraction (though it tries not to get into the actual shape of the world, since that might vary).  They can make oil of vitriol and spirit of niter in theory, though I don't remember if we have any vitriols at all.  Historians can start to understand how cultural differences and state bias affects source reliability and think a bit about social forces.  They can come up with dedicated hospitals with specialized wards, staffing, medical labs and treatment for many illnesses.  All sorts of other stuff -- as far as I can tell, none of this bumps up against the soft 1400 cut off, though there was disputed material here and there, in every field, and people are welcome to comment or advocate for inclusion/removal if they have information.

Quote from: Urist Arrhenius
Given the realistic nature of DF technology/science, to what degree will chemistry, mathematical, and similar books be randomly generated?

The books are randomly generated in the process of history (and in materials), but the content placed in the books is based on the knowledge of the writer, which depends on the currently fixed set of innovations available.  The set of innovations will begin to include some randomized fantasy stuff over time, and it might make reference to the raws in terms of chemistry perhaps later (and in ways related to the whole "does it affect the game?" set of concerns with reactions and all that).  It isn't randomly generating math theorems or anything, though I can see something vaguely happening along those lines for certain magic forms (as with the Threetoe story involving magic).

The specific text of the books doesn't go deeply into the theorems or anything -- it would be better to have more, but we have a large list we're working with so we can't spare more than a sentence or two at this time.

Quote from: Zarathustra30
Are there plans to integrate the animal training knowledge with rest of the knowledge system before the next major release? (The one after this one)

There aren't concrete plans to integrate the knowledge system with any practical side of play yet.  It's a tricky and dangerous sort of change.  We hope to work it into everything, but we don't have a time scale for that.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You mentioned dwarf, elf and human scholars but not goblins. Does that mean goblins won't have scholars (except poets!) or just that you haven't decided what they'll specialise in yet?

Their civilization doesn't value scholarship, so it doesn't happen there.  Goblins that are so inclined can become scholars elsewhere.  Some of the random human civs don't have scholars either.  The way the goblin stuff generally works, there'd be goblins that make the personal decision to think about such things even in the goblin civ, but the system doesn't support local individual choices of that kind yet.

Quote from: Broken
Does that mean there will be maps in Libraries, allowing to discover new locations?

Not yet, but we're working toward that.  It has been on the dev pages in several forms forever, and now we have one more reason and avenue to get there.

Quote from: Vattic
Does this mean we are likely to see humans fighting amongst themselves now?

Are the values similar to spheres in that related ones are more likely to group together and vice versa?

I don't remember if values made their way to world generation war causes the same way as religious sphere opposition and ethics, since they were added later.  Maybe not.  Certain pairings should probably be included, though lots of them probably wouldn't bother people the same way as eating people.

Right now, the value randomization is all independent, and hopefully it can work that way.  Some of the sphere relationships are meant to exclude things that don't make sense (especially as it concerns super/subsets), and the other are to build small groups of related spheres, but if it doesn't have to rule out certain value combinations, it would be best to keep them all.  If something really doesn't make sense, we'll probably prevent it eventually.

Once values can change more during play, there might be some that move together depending on the source of the change (if the source is more general), so I'm not sure they'll remain completely independent.  Some of the initial philosophically-inspired value changes that we get will probably be along a single value axis, since the written works refer to those directly.

Quote from: Man In Zero G
A thriving civilization, scholars from around the world congregating and exchanging ideas, storing the collective knowledge of the world in a vast, Alexandria-like Library.
Then the dragon/goblin army led by their demonic Overlord/fire-breathing titan/adventure mode PC shows up, slaughters the scholars and burns the library, setting back the pace of learning by centuries. Awesome.
So - books do burn, right? Will this be a thing?

Right now all the covers are still made out of stone sometimes, and the pages don't have materials (or whatever it does for that item improvement).  I'm still debating taking a further detour into better materials for books (and then doing scrolls or whatever instead of books oftentimes).  It might be best to wait.  Books might still be destroyed in world gen when bad things happen, and in regular play when really bad things happen.

Quote from: stolide
How do you feel about the game producing actual music following the rules you generate? As in, simple one voice folk songs that you hear when you walk by a musician who's playing. I made a song following one of your formats by just picking random notes and rests within the chords generated for a form.

Would you consider making key parts of the randomly generated musical forms stored in such a way that they could be reasonably easily accessed by external programs that convert them into audible music?

I don't think I could make music following the rules I generate, especially because some of the descriptors use emotional words in a way that makes it a difficult and subjective problem.

I don't have a raw format for the forms at this point, and they aren't considered part of the xml either.  It's a time-consuming conversion, so I probably won't do anything for this time.  I'd consider doing something, but I'm not sure what the correct choice is at this point between raws and xml.  Raws are more useful for more people, but I don't know if it has settled down yet or what's going to happen.

Quote from: Paaaad
With the advent of library's, will bookcases become a thing, or will books be stored in existing furniture?

I haven't added anything like that -- I won't get to library maps until the adventure-mode tavern changes at the end of this release process, most likely, and we haven't decided to what extent libraries will be in fort mode yet.

Quote from: Kogan Loloklam
How do you plan to display adventures approaching music?

Like the sound behind a wall?  We have those exclamation points for speech and walking, and we can probably use the musical notes provided by the ASCII for music.  Might use musical notes for visible people as well, but we'll see once I get to the dwarf mode musical activities (which aren't too far away now).

Quote from: CLA
Will we get these scholars in the fortress? (like the old philosopher)
Do you have any plans to have them create books while in player fortresses? Will we be able to create libraries ourselves (like a hospital or temple zone or whatever) and attract scholars?

Quote from: devlog
    The outlines are ready for [...] geographers [...]

Does this include cartography? And by extension, will that mean the world map you see in adventure mode will be influenced by your civs cartographic/geographic knowledge? Will we be able to find physical maps?
In general, will the book framework be used for anything else than actual books? I'm thinking of pamphlets, proclamations, wanted posters, and as mentioned, maps.

If we get the libraries into fort mode, which will probably happen to a small extent, we'll have fort mode scholars and books in a very basic capacity.  And yeah, the idea was that they'd be analogous to taverns and temples as meta-multi-zone location thingies that can attract outsiders.

The geography innovations include several related to cartography, but as with everything else we aren't tying it into the actual game yet.  But yeah, that's the idea.  We have several dev items on maps and we'd have you interact with them once they go in.

The "written content" framework functions beyond books, and presumably we'll use it for everything.  It now works for poems, music and choreographies now whether they are in a book or not, and any items that eventually spring up in a scroll sort of form should be able to use it.

Quote from: flabort
Since necros are not the only ones making books now, will we see existing professions creating books to pass down knowledge? (Fisherdwarfs giving casting techniques or guides to what fish are best when, animal trainers cataloging things that they tamed, miners keeping diaries, craftsdwarves writing about the proper usage of tools, etc)

Although the reason I didn't see it might be because it's venturing into suggestion territory, we do know that the new artists are getting books, so it's more like who else will be getting book-writing functionality?

I haven't added other authors than the ones mentioned at this point.

Quote from: Ribs
How will our new visitors react to having the fortress closed and being unable to leave, especially during a siege? Will they freak out and eventually go crazy like merchants currently do, or will they react more reasonably (either by accepting that there's a good reason for being stuck there or perhaps even demanding to be let out if there's no good reason for the fortress' entrance to be blocked)?

The merchant code is archaic, so I doubt the new visitors'll have the same issues.  I'm not sure what'll happen at this point, though, if anything.  They don't really have decent recourse if they don't break things, but I suppose they could just annoy people if they are impatient.

Quote from: Heph
Will there be partial and unfinished works?

Also now with books more commonplace will the Bookkeeper actualy keep book?

It isn't like that yet, though since we have that part of world gen working in weeks, it should be possible.  Once people write after world gen, it'll be a more natural result (since it surely wouldn't be a fast job), though it would need to be added explicitly as with anything.

The bookkeeper does not yet keep a book.

Quote from: Idranel
Have you heard about weighted A* search which introduces a constant factor w (with w > 1) to A*'s admissible heuristic to improve execution time by trading off the optimality of the results to be no worse than w times the optimal solution ?

Edit for clarification: My intention is to get a quick yes/no-like answer before I'll attempt to write a potentially redundant, proper, lengthy and formal suggestion post about ?-admissible search algorithms that are based on weighted A*.

Yeah, I've heard about it.  Initial complications are that (if I remember, been a while) we might blow out some variables if we multiple up beyond the traffic weights we're already using, and imperfect paths are kind of bad news for the appearance of reality, which leads to all sorts of trouble (false bug reports, etc).

Quote from: Vattic
Do you have plans for gorlaks, or other non civilised creatures making poems, songs, dances, and similar?

We're hoping to get our first animal person etc. "heroes" in for the visitor part this time.  Once they exist as historical figures...  various things can happen.  I'm not going fully into entity definitions for the side races this time -- and regardless there's the interesting question of the arts for intelligent solitary/mega critters that won't have entities (except in weird circumstances).  Not sure what'll happen and no specific plans.

Quote from: Galena
Will dwarves read books while on break? And if they read books, will they be able to gain skill from them?

It's quite possible, assuming we get our dwarven libraries up to the point that they have books in them, which seems like a first step.  We don't have skill books at this point, so the most they'd be able to do is learn the pythagorean theorem or something.

Quote from: Delioth
Toady- have you thought about tweaking with crossbows/ranged weapons having fixed ranges? i.e. the idea of firing a crossbow from a 3z high tower to get extra range?

Part of the problem is the visual range in general -- we just don't have a lot of room to work with, certainly not anything approaching the actual range of these weapons.  I haven't come up with a solution or thought about it very hard though.  It would be appropriate to do something, and the tower example would happen naturally if we get parabolas up for everything (which would get us to the range problem again though, so it doesn't actually work).

Quote from: KillerClowns
where will knowledge of adamantine working come from?

Where it'll stand after the myth generation and after the tech stuff gets worked into actual jobs is anybody's guess.  In general, both supernaturally-inspired knowledge and a slow slog of experimentation are on the table.  We're hoping to get some of our generated fantasy stuff innovation-tree'd up in a way that'll allow stuff like "mage colleges" (or whatever millions of other types can be concocted, not necessarily the typical "scholarly" ones) with some heft and consequences.

Quote from: Fieari
Will the new knowledge "tech forest" be accessible in the RAWs?

If I think up a new fantasy philosophy, can I have the philosophers in game discover it?  Or when the history department at my local IRL university thinks up a new historiography method, do we have to wait for it to be hard coded in or can we just add it to the RAWs ourselves?

For that matter, what about ideas that aren't just ambiguously correct, but are clearly wrong?  People wrote books and chased down clearly false ideas plenty of times in history. It's a part of science too, to propose an idea that might not work out.
Quote from: Urist McGoombaBrother
Are the innovations moddable? E.g. Is it possible to add some more innovations or even entire innovation chains via modding or is everything hardcoded? With innovation chain I mean let's say for woodcutting first investigate single blade axe, than double blade axe, than double blade axe with extra sharp blades, etc.

When this is moddable and one day ingame-functionality is added, will we be able to add custom effects to those innovations? e.g. double blade axe => 10 per cent faster chopping than with standard axe, double blade axe with extra sharp blades => 20 % faster chopping than standard axe, etc.

Also when moddable, will we be able to add tech trees for completely random studies e.g. plump helmet science or tree hugging techniques for elves? Just for personal amusement and to be able to find books or engravings about this or that.

Nope, not yet.  I'm still not sure how to interact with a few things -- certain things like "biography" are linked to the ability to write that kind of book, which is going to require a syntax like any of the job connections we do later, and trickier problems like how the ability of philosophers to write on individual happiness or government allows them to inject their values into specific books about the subject (with lots of associated text branching on values).  It's also kind of like spheres -- there's a fundamentalness to a few of the innovations that resists rawification (since it basically amounts to the open-source question).  We'll probably figure it out, one way or the other, anyway.  Presumably the technological advances will matter in some way -- probably ties to whatever item raws eventually say about things like agricultural purpose/efficiency/etc., or how a non-item innovation itself merges with however farming output works.  It'll be complicated and piecemeal, I imagine, since there's a great variety to be handled.

Doing incorrect information is hard when we don't even have "correct" information done.  We'll get to specific cases eventually, but the myriad wrong paths people can take are harder to do.  It'll be part of the myth stuff as each society looks at the generated story from its perspective, but maybe not much on the first pass.

Quote from: Cobbler89
So will people still write books about other people's books about other people's books about mugs?

I haven't changed anything about that, though the scholars have generally been writing about their research instead of commenting.  The necromancers get bored.

Quote from: Urist_McDagger
Does that mean that, eventually, we will have hunters that have read books about specific critters and know how they usually act in a state of terror? I.e. that we will have hunters that do not run up next to an elephant before it has dealt a lethal blow?

If so; will this be expanded upon to enable hunters/players to aim for lethal points in sentient creatures/critters, if they've read a book about the biology of, say, humans?

It all depends on the direction things go.  We have books about various behaviors of various animals, but since few of those behaviors are actually in the raws yet, it doesn't really matter until the game itself is more interesting, and then there'd be the additional step.

Quote from: Zavvnao
With the 1400 cut-off date, could we expect world-gen ruins that hint at more advanced things you can't be build by any of the civs?

Entire civilizations don't die off often enough for this to happen much yet, but it's theoretically possible to have a ruined town with a ruined library now that has books describing things well beyond what is known by anybody living.  As the innovations get linked to actual in-game objects, the living and dead civs will differentiate more.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
How will people discover new knowledge at the beginning of time? Will worldgen just create wisemen who then write books or pass on teachings through teacher/apprentice relationships? Or will gods n' demons grant the knowledge?

The initial scholars discover the simple innovations (those without prereqs) by spending time thinking during their turns.  When the myth stuff goes in, all the prometheus gift/demon "gift"/etc.etc.etc. stuff will start to come in as well.  As we expand the innovations over to the game's professions, scholars won't control the whole mundane process I expect, and we'll have technologies spring up in regular communities outside of the library setting, and spread in ways aside from books.

Quote from: Ribs
Will scribes make copies of important books to distribute them, possibly to other libraries across the world?

Yeah, the libraries currently obtain copies of books that reside in other libraries over time with some respect for distance, but we don't have scribes separated out as a person you can find yet.

Quote from: Zarathustra30
Is some knowledge protected? Will dwarves prevent the spread of metalworking techniques outside of their civilization?

We don't have anything like that yet.  It'll be more important when they matter and hopefully we'll remember at that time before the wrong book copy gets sent out to a human library.

Quote from: LordBaal
Everyone will be capable of reading any book? I mean, different languages won't affect reading/speaking (just yet)?

We don't have different languages for the books yet.  I'm not sure when I'll get into that.  Attaching a translation token to the written content would be simple enough, but we'd also need the knowledge of languages inside the people, and it would still make playing quite annoying without various mitigation (especially if you can't read the various slabs/books that actually do stuff when you triumphantly obtain them).  It is something we want to do though -- once you can take the slab etc. to a translator etc. it would be fun again (and open up more possibilities for how it all turns out).

Quote from: Robsoie
That led me to wondering then if accidentally or by bug or by facetious adventurer bringing it, a necromancer book end into the fortress library, will that fort be filled by lots of new necromancers in no time?

It depends on how books are understood to belong to a library or which books are understood as being the ones to read -- the game won't see things that aren't properly transferred (although in the fort they might not care as long as the zone is right -- haven't gotten there yet, assuming we do much with libraries there this time).  The way artifacts are stored on sites, it might recognize original books brought to a library, but it would have to work harder to understood copies you've pilfered from one library to another, since those don't have "artifact" status and the library tracks its copies separately by necessity.

Quote from: Mephansteras
Will the new system allow for things like training medical dwarves? Will it be possible to have reactions that look for a book of a particular topic/type?

Eventually, it'll all be linked up, but I haven't rawified innovations yet, not even with a sphere-style tag, until we're ready to risk blocking off chunks of dwarf mode to tech-starved dwarf civs, which would be frustrating until that's mitigated in many ways.

Quote from: Vattic
Will there be harder books that require greater reading skill than others?

I haven't sorted that out -- it isn't just the reading skill, but the scholarly/art skills/knowledge as well.  It seems like some books should require not only prerequisite skills but also prerequisite knowledge to understand at all, whereas others might actually implicitly provide prerequisite knowledge as well as the topic knowledge while imparting some skill as well, depending on the subject, length of study, etc.

It's vaguely related to the overall adoption of an innovation -- at some point, losing books/scholars shouldn't matter if everybody in the civ picks up a concept from an early age or there are representative artifacts everywhere, but that only applies to some things that lend themselves to cultural absorption/reproduction (some of the more esoteric innovations never get that way, even after thousands of years, or they occupying a middle ground where they'd be more obvious but not without work).

Quote from: Urist Arrhenius
In adv mode will the player be able to become a student of a scholar, and later become a teacher themselves? Will adv players be able to create books?
Quote from: Novel Scoops
Can the game be modded so scholars genuinely "know" what they're supposed too and actually teach the player? i.e, rip from various ancient textbooks and treatises which the player can then be taught and tested on?

I'm not sure we'll be doing this one for this release -- the performance stuff is a little easier to make fun, where making the teacher-student process for scholars work seems like it would take a lot of writing and conversation and passage of time, and having any actual mechanics there would require a lot more resolution in the knowledge lists, perhaps.  It's kind of like becoming the bookkeeper of a fortress -- it's possible to work out a game from there and make it fun, and it should be an option in the spirit of doing everything, but it doesn't feel like the path of least resistance, especially with what's on the table now.  That said, playing things like wizard's apprentices is very standard fantasy, and the way things are going, that's all going to be part of the same system (in the more 'understandable' generated magics, anyway), so the circles might wrap around in weird ways.

Quote from: SimRobert2001
How will the game actually differ between short and long world gen? What will the technological differences be?
Quote from: Baffler
Will research be conducted in our own fortresses? If that research is fruitful, will it spread out of the fort in some way, say travelling scholars visiting the library as well as the tavern?

As I mentioned in one of those logs, the technologies won't yet affect the playable aspects of the game, and I haven't broken down the hands-on labors into their innovations for the most part.  Even where I have, it doesn't matter.  So the practical differences are very small, and it doesn't affect dwarf buildings or jobs.  As we figure out how to manage larger changes, there'll be differences, but it's hard to say how that's all going to interact with other changes, especially where the supernatural is involved.  We'll probably have a few options as well, if the changes become intrusive.

Assuming we do libraries in fort mode this time, they'd get books as a first step very likely.  At that point, the game would understand what's there, and any scholars moving around would be able to read and use them as the calendar advances, and presumably the copying procedure would also continue -- every w.g. process needs to be continued manually into post w.g., but I'm trying to keep that up to date between modes.

Quote from: Urist McGoombaBrother
Just, for the big picture, is the innovation system currently implemented as major feature of the adventure mode only? Or is this also a major topic for fortress mode?

Calling it a major feature for either mode would be a stretch.  This was just for wholesome and diverse libraries this time, and we'll go from there.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1652 on: March 30, 2015, 08:22:00 pm »

Whoa, this one is big!
Thanks, Toady!
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1653 on: March 30, 2015, 08:37:56 pm »

The specific text of the books doesn't go deeply into the theorems or anything -- it would be better to have more, but we have a large list we're working with so we can't spare more than a sentence or two at this time.
If I understand you correctly, and this is mostly an issue of not having enough time to type out detailed descriptions, could this sort of thing be outsourced to your loving public? It wouldn't be at all hard for the community to flesh out scientific descriptions, especially of genuine scientific advancements.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1654 on: March 31, 2015, 12:29:52 am »

Oh god so much to think about... musical notes for music behind walls: amazing idea, love it.

Having the option to start as a "sprung from the earth" or "historical figure"... I don't even know where to begin, as it stands there are several ways you can go about achieving something similar with your own dorfs (with dfhack you can mode set switch to arena mode from fort mode, assume control of someone, then mode set to adventurer mode and dfusion change adventurer to make them save properly and such) or with folks you encounter as an adventurer (dfusion change adventurer will swap control) and it is fun having the additional interactions and such, but being able to start up and have a background with family and friends and such? *squee*

I see what you mean about the fort mode obstacles getting trivialized if you can just swap to someone and go through abusing practiced adventurer mode strategies (have you seen the whole Kisat Dur thing Broseph Stalin started codifying/collecting?) to turn away a siege before swapping back... though I am curious now what happens if I ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of a dorf mid-siege.

Now a question: Is the "greatly respected for heroic acts" line in legends mode a "higher rank" than "legendary hero", and is there a similar sort like "greatly feared as a killer" beyond even "legendary killer" possible? I ask because simply returning kids to their family will have them call you a legendary hero, and I'm pretty sure after a handful of kids returned to the same civ you show up as "greatly respected" in legends.

I love saving kids, the cuteness of them running up to their parents with the whole "mother, is it you?" dialogue, the dorflet embraces mayor, all of it, and the way people actually respond after a bit of time has passed is fantastic. I've had people in neighboring hillocks and such start to recognize me and be amazed to meet me after having rescued a horde of munchkins, which is super satisfying. Honestly didn't know this wasn't a feature before, as I started around 40.06~ and only started adventuring seriously after around 40.14 I think, but it's great having that extra little interaction with the world, as well as a purely positive method of gaining fame.

Oh man, I might get to see them start dancing or throwing a party to celebrate the reunion at some point, hah, that'll be fun. Now to figure out how to resolve the "my mother lives in Oilfountain" and "my father lives in Basementchannels" situations better than using dfusion to make them follow me to the relevant spot, though I suppose just being able to summarize how you reunited them with soandso in soandso a certaintime ago would work.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1655 on: March 31, 2015, 01:34:58 am »

Toady, with visitors now coming to a fort, how important do you feel it is to have the ability to place arbitrary restrictions on which parts of a fort can be accessed? Like guards at the entrance to the royal chambers turning away everyone who isn't a noble without invitation, keeping random sightseers out of your secret defences, jailers granting or rejecting visitation rights, librarians supervising browsing or borrowing, kids being shooed out of taverns by the bouncer or any other thing you could imagine. "Sounds good, no time line" or closer on the horizon than that?


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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1656 on: March 31, 2015, 03:02:20 am »

I was curious, with the new groups like bands and similar how big of a problem will loyalty cascades be? If my fortress is invaded by someone who is in a band with one of my dwarves, will i have to deal with my dwarf once i have killed off the invaders?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1657 on: March 31, 2015, 03:15:02 am »

Thanks for taking the time to answer Toady.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1658 on: March 31, 2015, 07:58:13 am »

with multicultural forts coming out with knowlage transfer will we be able to gain the tech from other civs?

Like say, if a human moves into the fort with a scourge can we learn to make scourges?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1659 on: March 31, 2015, 10:11:15 am »

Thank you for that long and detailed reply.

How do you envision innovations affecting gameplay, and will it be used as an excuse to move some things out into the raws?  I'm imaging several substitute reactions like INEFFICIENT_UNRELIABLE_STEELMAKING, INEFFICIENT_RELIABLE_STEELMAKING and EFFICIENT_RELIABLE_STEELMAKING, but there are others that don't map so well into current raws like using math innovations to unlock siege engines.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1660 on: March 31, 2015, 10:56:16 am »

Thanks for the answers, Toady!
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1661 on: March 31, 2015, 11:02:12 am »

How is the naming of innovations going to happen? For example with the Pythagorean Theorem, virtually everyone nowadays knows it as the Pythagorean theorem, yet it someone else had come up with it, it would be called something totally different? Is the game going to use the common, modern names so they are easy to look up for the players, or are the names of the innovations going to be more randomly generated or named after their inventors? limegreen
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1662 on: March 31, 2015, 11:12:17 am »

Thanks, Toady!
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1663 on: March 31, 2015, 01:07:18 pm »

Pythagoras is a multiversal constant; an aspect of the person is born in every civilized world, always with the same name (much like gin and tonics).
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1664 on: March 31, 2015, 01:08:41 pm »

Many thx for your lenghty answers. As always very interesting. :-)

I was curious, with the new groups like bands and similar how big of a problem will loyalty cascades be? If my fortress is invaded by someone who is in a band with one of my dwarves, will i have to deal with my dwarf once i have killed off the invaders?

When someone, let's say an elf, is in a band of your dwarves, how is this elf able to invade your fort? Isn't he supposed to be already in your tavern and play all day long? But I guess interesting will be to see, how this said elf is reacting, when his whole family is besieging you, because you tried to sell them some wooden chairs. Will he stay loyal to his band and attack his own family or the opposite way round? Or does that elf try to stay neutral and doesn't do anything at all?
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