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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 987271 times)

MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2385 on: August 27, 2015, 04:31:17 pm »

That extremely rarely happens in real life. Its very hard to lose knowledge. Though in real life, technological accumulation isn't linear. Generally what happen, is that there is a loss to materiel needed to do that thing or a loss of need to do that thing.
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Malrone

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2386 on: August 27, 2015, 05:15:10 pm »

It's rare after a point, but it does and has happened. The Chinese industrial revolution circa 1000 was completely reversed, we don't know what Corinthian Bronze actually is, Damascus Steel is a lost art only recently (and only barely) recovered, and all attempts at figuring out how to make Greek Fire have failed. Having a technology rich history generation that can't include such tragedies as the destruction of the libraries of Alexandria and Baghdad, for example, would be a notable absence I think.
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NJW2000

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2387 on: August 27, 2015, 05:24:07 pm »

Also, we can't even make godamn cement set underwater like the Romans could, and that's technology that would definitely be pretty damn useful in non-specialised situations.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2388 on: August 27, 2015, 06:44:18 pm »

It's rare after a point, but it does and has happened. The Chinese industrial revolution circa 1000 was completely reversed, we don't know what Corinthian Bronze actually is, Damascus Steel is a lost art only recently (and only barely) recovered, and all attempts at figuring out how to make Greek Fire have failed. Having a technology rich history generation that can't include such tragedies as the destruction of the libraries of Alexandria and Baghdad, for example, would be a notable absence I think.
Thats not true at al. Damascus Steel was an iron ore found in northern India. It stopped, not because anything was lost but because the deposits ran out. There is no need to place techniques on it.
Corinthian Bronze was probably an alloy of copper and gold or silver or high quality bronze. Though we don't know what it was, because there no known example of it. There is no need to place techniques on it.

Greek Fire, maybe the only actually lost thing here. Though napalm is is probably more effective version of it. Greek Fire is really interesting, as its one of the earliest if not the first example of compartmentalization in order to secure state secrets.

And Alexandria didnt exclusively have originals nor did Baghdad.  So while the several destruction of the Alexandria library did lose some knowledge, probably not as much as romantically believed.

And roman underwater concrete is awesome. But it wasn't ever lost. Concrete was used well after the roman era. It also wasnt superior to modern concrete. So while there are lots of roman concrete left, roman over engineered. And most of Roman concrete isn't around. The issue here, is how that knowledge was preserved. It was mostly passed on in master apprentice relationships, and whose recipe change over time, with new knowledge, new needs and probably most important, what you have on hand. The quote unquote rediscovery of underwater concrete to redo the parisian sewers, was done to avoid unions. If the state could figure out how to do it, they didnt need to rely on union workers to do the work.
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Malrone

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2389 on: August 27, 2015, 08:43:41 pm »

@ MrWiggles
I did some research and found this. I'm more in agreement with you now (if not completely), but some exceptional situations still stand out. That they're just that -exceptional- might make it wise to discount them at this stage of game development, yes.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2390 on: August 27, 2015, 09:19:21 pm »

Yea the lost momentum of the Chinese empire is very interesting. Its a very complex issue, that sorta happen because the lost of important of the silk road with Europeans going to china via boats, with the Chinese State become more xenophobic which always stifles new ideas.

Though I think its a bit hyperbolic to say that the Chinese empire could have had an industrial revolution in the 15th century. One of the key things that allowed for that to happen in European was the invention of artificial chemical fertilizer which greatly reduced the number of manpower needed to form. And China wouldnt have had that in the 15th century.
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Malrone

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2391 on: August 28, 2015, 03:31:45 am »

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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2392 on: August 29, 2015, 07:23:43 pm »

Not could. Did.

Between those two posts, I think I can come up with all sorts of things my political opponents are doing wrong.  Wrong, ya hear!  Now get off of my lawn, ye dang kids!
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2393 on: August 30, 2015, 05:03:43 pm »

I think conversations are related to time schemes in fortress mode: you see everything speeded up, so it would only be relevant to have your information slowed down enough to have individual sentences if you were pausing or examining something in slow motion.

Pausing = the thought/quotes on personality page, and slow motion = combat reports. Where they do randomly talk. To their enemies.

The latter is pretty limited, to be fair. The only times they don't do generic fear statements is when they choose to say something totally inappropriate. It's actually pretty rude to tell someone that you have no hope after getting sunburn if you've just hammered their spinal column through their guts.
I get why there's no routine conversation in fortress mode (it's not like the entity has [TRANSLATION:OLD_ENTISH]), but it'd be nice to see topics of conversation pop up on the Thoughts and Preferences screen (Urist felt pride discussing her battle with a cave dragon.).  I think think the bardic tales in the upcoming release will go a long way in that regard, but the reality is there are some people who really do just like to hear themselves talk.

Interestingly enough, I seem to recall that in the process of creating a tool which told you more about your process, someone found out that the creatures in fortress mode do have conversations (or what passes for them in DF), it's just we don't see them.

Frost demon "Look at the sky! Do you think we're in hell?"
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2394 on: August 30, 2015, 10:36:22 pm »

Oh god I remember that!
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2395 on: August 30, 2015, 11:12:50 pm »

I think conversations are related to time schemes in fortress mode: you see everything speeded up, so it would only be relevant to have your information slowed down enough to have individual sentences if you were pausing or examining something in slow motion.

Pausing = the thought/quotes on personality page, and slow motion = combat reports. Where they do randomly talk. To their enemies.

The latter is pretty limited, to be fair. The only times they don't do generic fear statements is when they choose to say something totally inappropriate. It's actually pretty rude to tell someone that you have no hope after getting sunburn if you've just hammered their spinal column through their guts.
I get why there's no routine conversation in fortress mode (it's not like the entity has [TRANSLATION:OLD_ENTISH]), but it'd be nice to see topics of conversation pop up on the Thoughts and Preferences screen (Urist felt pride discussing her battle with a cave dragon.).  I think think the bardic tales in the upcoming release will go a long way in that regard, but the reality is there are some people who really do just like to hear themselves talk.

Interestingly enough, I seem to recall that in the process of creating a tool which told you more about your process, someone found out that the creatures in fortress mode do have conversations (or what passes for them in DF), it's just we don't see them.

Frost demon "Look at the sky! Do you think we're in hell?"

you can look at them by setting up announcements.txt to show the conversations in combat reports IIRC

DarkwingUK

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2396 on: August 31, 2015, 04:08:37 pm »

Dear Toady,

I hope you don't mind two questions!

The beauty of the game has always been about the persistence of history after death (of fortress, of characters), and my questions relate to that.

I noticed that there is a menu in the units lists dedicated to dead dwarves. Is there a reason why we cannot see any information about them after they are dead (in the live units list we can see their thoughts, preferences, and relationships. In the latest version especially, because slabs seem much less likely to indicate who killed them (usually just says bled to death), the dwarves very much disappear when they are dead.

Now that there are songs, dances, and books with topics, do you plan some way of designating a person to be memorialised through art, similarly to how it was possible by engraving slabs?
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lethosor

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2397 on: August 31, 2015, 07:30:19 pm »

I noticed that there is a menu in the units lists dedicated to dead dwarves. Is there a reason why we cannot see any information about them after they are dead (in the live units list we can see their thoughts, preferences, and relationships.
You can get to this information through dead dwarves' relatives (or with DFHack, for that matter), so it's not a technical reason. I'd say it's simply an oversight, since the unit information screen used to be far less interesting than it is now. I'm pretty sure this has been suggested in the suggestions forum before, anyway, so Toady will probably look at it.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2398 on: August 31, 2015, 08:37:58 pm »

Dear Toady,

I hope you don't mind two questions!

Now that there are songs, dances, and books with topics, do you plan some way of designating a person to be memorialised through art, similarly to how it was possible by engraving slabs?

So with question like these, the answer will be: "That sounds good, but no time table."

Generally, if it sounds reasonable to be included with a feature present in the game but isnt already, then if not outright planned for, it may sneak itself in. Its not lost on most of of us, that great deeds or histories make their way into song dance, and poem.
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2399 on: September 01, 2015, 06:45:59 am »

"Urist McPoet, compose a song about our Champion who single-handedly slew a sieging army with the jawbone of an ass."
"As you wish, Duke."
Urist McPoet withdraws from society and works secretly...

"Right.  I did not mean a song about the time he left three of his squadmates to die because he was busy getting a fresh pair of socks."
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