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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1841820 times)

omega_dwarf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2745 on: November 01, 2015, 10:48:07 pm »

Thanks, Toady! I know that there are a lot of features that did make it :)

(And I don't really support the off-color "child care" that exists atm; haven't ever tried to implement it, either.)

Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2746 on: November 01, 2015, 11:48:00 pm »

Hey don't you badmouth the horrific things done in the name of science by our fellow posters!
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AceSV

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2747 on: November 02, 2015, 12:37:29 am »

1.  What's the plan for paper-making industry?  Will there be multiple types of "paper", like papyrus, large leaves, parchment, velum, hemp, dwarven beard hair fiber paper, plump helmet pulp paper?  Will we be able to use paper to make other objects, like paper crafts, paper charms, paper windows or paper armor? 

2.  Will taverns exclusively dispense alcohol, or would it be possible to make something like coffee and tea with a different syndrome?  If a food item comes with an alcohol-like syndrome, a magic mushroom for instance, is there a mechanic by which dwarves would recognize that food as syndrome-inducing or would they just chow down haphazardly? 

3.  Will it be possible to define a civilization with more than one species? for example, PeanutButter Elves and Jelly Elves that live together in the Sandwich civilization? 

4.  If one were to mod in a civilization that was intelligent but did not have hands, like a race of dragons or alien blobs or whatever, would they be able to recruit visitors to manufacture items for them?  If they permit slavery or are baby snatchers, would they be able to recruit captives to manufacture items for them? 

5.  Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them?  Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves.  If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel?  Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths? 


(I feel like some of these must have been asked before, but I don't remember an answer) 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 01:15:58 am by AceSV »
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Silverybearded

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2748 on: November 02, 2015, 04:53:37 am »

You mentioned "books disguised as levers". Is this going to be a thing? Will I one day go in a library and try to take a book, only for the game to be like "Congratulations you found a secret lever HERE HAVE SOME MAGMA"
Will there be more things disguised as things? (Will it possible to learn the true nature of disguised things from people who know about it?) What about secret doorways?

And on that note, long-term goal question: Will there be the possibility of automatic lever handling? So that I can assign dorfs to guard lever-controlled doors, who will pull the lever when someone friendly wants through, or assign certain lever positions to certain alarm settings...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 12:15:21 pm by Silverybearded »
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Engraved is a superior rendition of an image of Arkoth, the local deity of balance and speech, and two elves. Arkoth is burning the two elves. Arkoth is laughing. The two elves are suffering. The image was commissioned by the Round Guild, a local dwarven government.

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2749 on: November 02, 2015, 06:59:30 am »

Quote from: Toady One
I finished handling the last personality needs in dwarf mode -- dwarves can swipe and own and wear trinkets again somewhat like they did before, for instance, with the avaricious and extravagant dwarves doing it more than others.

Does this mean that we'll once again have dungeon masters who wear sixteen crowns and twenty capes and not a stitch else?
No, that's more of a status need similar to kings with crowns and such, which Toady has mentioned as not in the game yet.

1.  What's the plan for paper-making industry?  Will there be multiple types of "paper", like papyrus, large leaves, parchment, velum, hemp, dwarven beard hair fiber paper, plump helmet pulp paper?  Will we be able to use paper to make other objects, like paper crafts, paper charms, paper windows or paper armor?
Toady has mentioned papyrus, parchment, and paper in the dev log, so different types of paper are in. I think he mentioned that any cloth plant can be used for paper. There might be paper crafts, but anything else probably isn't on the table for this release.

3.  Will it be possible to define a civilization with more than one species? for example, PeanutButter Elves and Jelly Elves that live together in the Sandwich civilization?
No. Toady mentioned previously that this probably is too much work for this release. You could fake it with different castes, though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5.  Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them?  Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves.  If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel?  Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths?
Not yet, no I'm pretty sure. They only bring their arts, values, and ethics right now as far as I remember.
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WordsandChaos

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2750 on: November 02, 2015, 08:51:19 am »

Awesome information on the relationship mechanics - I had no idea it was already that nuanced. Thanks for enlightening me, Toady!

AceSV

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2751 on: November 02, 2015, 08:13:39 pm »

3.  Will it be possible to define a civilization with more than one species? for example, PeanutButter Elves and Jelly Elves that live together in the Sandwich civilization?
No. Toady mentioned previously that this probably is too much work for this release. You could fake it with different castes, though.


It'd be a large rewrite, since the "race" variable for entity definitions is scattered all over the place.  I'm going to deal with a lot of those dependencies just to get the multispecies forts running, and we'll see where we are when that work is done.  Good fortune would be a full gutting, but I'm going to skip what I can for time.  I'm not sure what a multiracial raw def would mean in terms of starting pops.  It would be easiest just to split it in half/etc. I guess, though the test myth generator's interweaved stories of various critter origins is a large wrench in this process that might be worth waiting for.

Ah, okay.  I do wonder if it would be possible to coax two species into getting along more frequently.  Like if the PeanutButterElf civ was in the same starting biome as the JellyElf civ, could you guarantee a strong mixing of their populations.  That's probably something we'll need to test ourselves. 
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eternaleye

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2752 on: November 03, 2015, 12:04:52 am »

There's no timeline for multithreading.  As far as I can tell from conversations and forum threads about this, it would be difficult or impossible to do at all in a large sense.  There's more hope for targeted improvements, but that still has the problem of me not knowing a thing about it or where best to apply it, and the risk of a months-long delay with zero gain on the other end.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are multiple approaches to concurrency and/or parallelism, and they can have exceedingly different tradeoffs.

In particular, the ones I see as most likely to be useful:

1.) OpenMP

OpenMP is a framework designed to allow adding parallelism with minimal changes, while keeping the code entirely capable of compiling in single-threaded mode. It works by way of adding special #pragma directives immediately before the code that needs to behave in interesting ways in a parallel setting. Likely the most useful to you are:

"#pragma omp parallel for" - instructs the compiler to try and parallelize what it can of the for loop that follows the directive

"#pragma omp critical" - instructs the compiler that the following block or function is a 'critical section' that must execute in only one thread at a time

"#pragma omp master" - similar to critical, but must execute only in the main thread

OpenMP is supported in GCC and can be enabled via the -fopenmp compiler directive, and in Visual Studio 2010 and newer (though only OpenMP 2.0) with the /openmp directive.

2.) Speculative computation

It may be possible to predict _partial_ information early, and then speculatively compute results for each possible value the unknown information could take. This could be of value for any function that either does not modify state itself and merely calculates what modifications would be, or is an input to a later conditional. The results could then be stored in a map from the inputs to the output value, saving later computation if the prediction is correct. This is very much a time-memory tradeoff, and would need parameters to decide how much CPU and memory to spend on it.

I suspect a big place this might help is temperature and water level fluctuations - if a cell usually fluctuates between two values, and the parameters are relatively predictable, this could drastically reduce the main-thread's CPU load for such things: Once all the parameters are known, it just looks up the appropriate value.

This is a special case of memoization, in which the function is called speculatively to aggressively memoize values not yet encountered.

Memoization itself might be a useful trick as well, though it doesn't make use of threading. However, memoization-based techniques only work if all inputs to a function are known/declared/factored into the key of the map.

3.) Independent calculations that synchronize on tick

I suspect there are some _kinds_ of calculations that rarely or never interact with each other before the next tick. Running these in threads and then synchronizing on a semaphore at the end of a tick could be a relatively low-impact change.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 02:02:11 am by eternaleye »
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4kn

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2753 on: November 03, 2015, 07:03:36 am »

One thing to keep in mind is that there are multiple approaches to concurrency and/or parallelism, and they can have exceedingly different tradeoffs.

I love you! almost as much as i will be loving ToadyOne as soon as he'll implement those tricks in DF code.
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DarthAgnan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2754 on: November 03, 2015, 10:21:45 am »

5.  Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them?  Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves.  If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel?  Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths?
Not yet, no I'm pretty sure. They only bring their arts, values, and ethics right now as far as I remember.

So, if immigrants now bring their values with them, does this mean that now you will be able to take say a goblin (or an elf? not sure which) into your fort and make him a butcher so he can butcher dwarf (etc.) corpses since goblins (or elves?) are ok with butchering intelligent beings?
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2755 on: November 03, 2015, 02:56:18 pm »

Will we see an embark scenario where we found a new Civ all on our own?
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Bouchart

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2756 on: November 03, 2015, 03:25:43 pm »

Will immigrant egg-layers like kobolds or a (presumably modded) animalman like a platypus man be able to use nest boxes?
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Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2757 on: November 03, 2015, 06:19:10 pm »

5.  Can visitors bring reaction knowledge with them?  Let's say I've modded the game to play as goblins instead of dwarves.  If a dwarf furnace operator joins my fortress, would he be able to manufacture steel?  Conversely, if I'm playing dwarves, will my goblin visitors be able to produce whips and loincloths?
Not yet, no I'm pretty sure. They only bring their arts, values, and ethics right now as far as I remember.

So, if immigrants now bring their values with them, does this mean that now you will be able to take say a goblin (or an elf? not sure which) into your fort and make him a butcher so he can butcher dwarf (etc.) corpses since goblins (or elves?) are ok with butchering intelligent beings?

I'm going to say no. While the immigrants bring their values, the do not necessarily bring their ethics with them. Also, it has been stated that immigrants will not bring technologies or reactions with them. Since Dwarven ethics preclude a "Butcher Urist" order from being issued at the butcher shop, I don't see how this could happen. In Vanilla forts, at least.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 06:21:23 pm by Mr S »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2758 on: November 03, 2015, 09:15:23 pm »

Conversely, Toady has said that making non-dwarves do things that go against their ethics will upset them (new Elf? Off to the woodcarvers workshop with him!).
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AceSV

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2759 on: November 04, 2015, 01:08:05 am »

I was under the impression that visitors would follow their own ethics while they are visiting, but convert to your civ's ethics if they become citizens. 

5/15/2015  Toady One: I mentioned in some Future of the Fortress or other that ethics and values don't instantly assimilate when you grant resident or citizen status to a visitor that petitions to stay at your fortress, and that we'd make sure to have some definite evidence of that fact. I started by diversifying the "work satisfaction" thought by feeding in the job type and filtering it through the individual. In particular, any elves that have the misfortune of signing up for dwarven life can now emotionally process the experiences of tree felling, butchery and animal caging. We trust you'll respect this new situation in your labor settings.

That makes me wonder.  I've made mod races that don't like to kill trees or don't like to kill animals, but there is no penalty for doing those things in fortress mode, except that you can't trade such items with your home civ.  Perhaps they will now be penalized with emotional distress.  I wonder if they can outright refuse though, as far as I know the only activity that can be refused is the butchering of sapients. 
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could God in fact send a kea to steal Excalibur and thereby usurp the throne of the Britons? 
Furry Fortress 3 The third saga unfurls.  Now with Ninja Frogs and Dogfish Pirates.
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