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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1212845 times)

Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3510 on: February 25, 2016, 03:42:21 pm »

Killing goblins, however, usually is.

But what if you are the goblins? :V
They are perfectly fine with goblins killing goblins.  It's anyone else killing goblins that they mind.
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3511 on: February 25, 2016, 03:57:18 pm »

Thats not really how the game works, the biomes are ingrained deeply into the simulation eg, swamps are based on a salinity maps, water maps , temperature, climate etc and a ton of other maps on the world map.It doesnt just randomly place biomes they come about based on climate and stuff like real life.  If you mean defining something akin to a"good/evil" biome the plan is to base them off of spheres. I doubt we will be able to create our own, we might be able to edit raw files for them like with evil biomes and stuff though.

Ahh, big shame then, I was thinking something akin to an evil/good/savage biome setup, just with being able to define only certain types of grass/rock/etc. to show up in said biome, instead of amid the generic types of material.

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3512 on: February 25, 2016, 04:31:01 pm »

Thats not really how the game works, the biomes are ingrained deeply into the simulation eg, swamps are based on a salinity maps, water maps , temperature, climate etc and a ton of other maps on the world map.It doesnt just randomly place biomes they come about based on climate and stuff like real life.  If you mean defining something akin to a"good/evil" biome the plan is to base them off of spheres. I doubt we will be able to create our own, we might be able to edit raw files for them like with evil biomes and stuff though.

Ahh, big shame then, I was thinking something akin to an evil/good/savage biome setup, just with being able to define only certain types of grass/rock/etc. to show up in said biome, instead of amid the generic types of material.
It's not like biome definition is something that can't be moved to the raws (for example, a mod could shoehorn subtropical ranges between the tropical and temperate ones), but it would require modifying a lot of vanilla raws to have any impact, and doesn't seem worth the effort for the foreseeable future.

If plants and creatures eventually transition to preferred environment parameters rather than named biomes, then the biome descriptions themselves become flavor text and moving them to the raws makes perfect sense.  Then if you really do want to build your little house on a Prairie, you can.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3513 on: February 25, 2016, 07:00:59 pm »

Thats not really how the game works, the biomes are ingrained deeply into the simulation eg, swamps are based on a salinity maps, water maps , temperature, climate etc and a ton of other maps on the world map.It doesnt just randomly place biomes they come about based on climate and stuff like real life.  If you mean defining something akin to a"good/evil" biome the plan is to base them off of spheres. I doubt we will be able to create our own, we might be able to edit raw files for them like with evil biomes and stuff though.

Ahh, big shame then, I was thinking something akin to an evil/good/savage biome setup, just with being able to define only certain types of grass/rock/etc. to show up in said biome, instead of amid the generic types of material.
It's not like biome definition is something that can't be moved to the raws (for example, a mod could shoehorn subtropical ranges between the tropical and temperate ones), but it would require modifying a lot of vanilla raws to have any impact, and doesn't seem worth the effort for the foreseeable future.

If plants and creatures eventually transition to preferred environment parameters rather than named biomes, then the biome descriptions themselves become flavor text and moving them to the raws makes perfect sense.  Then if you really do want to build your little house on a Prairie, you can.
Maybe it will eventually get to that point.
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3514 on: February 26, 2016, 06:16:09 am »

Or you could wait a week, and then you'd have happyplayers [not outtokillyouplayers] as well as regularish updates for the next update. Srsly, killing Toady is never the solution.

Killing goblins, however, usually is.

ON TOPIC NOW!

Toady, do you ever plan on making spears and such able to attack from a longer reach?

If it were up to me, I'd redo some of the combat code, allowing dwarves armed with certain weapons to attack from one tile away, but I have no idea how hard that is, how long it would take, and how buggy the result would be.
Seems like that would be a natural sidegrowth of multitile creatures. You can almost fake it with interactions (except it would show as "the spinning spear" or "is engulfed in a burst of spears" since it would technically be shooting the item with a ~2 tile range) or go the other way and have longer weapons with low prepare/high recovery since they can be brought to bear "earlier" but there's still stuff like how would you display it, if at all, how do you handle intervening units, etc.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 06:17:43 am by Max™ »
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burned

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3515 on: February 26, 2016, 05:58:20 pm »

Or you could wait a week, and then you'd have happyplayers [not outtokillyouplayers] as well as regularish updates for the next update. Srsly, killing Toady is never the solution.

Killing goblins, however, usually is.

ON TOPIC NOW!

Toady, do you ever plan on making spears and such able to attack from a longer reach?



Rainseeker:    Now if you have a spear lets say, a longer weapon, could you hit a person running at you sooner than he could hit you?
Toady:   This is one of the main things we haven't done in terms of the combat arc, is reach. I mean, reach is a really really really really important concept that hasn't been explored in Dwarf Fortress yet and we were almost going to jump in, and because there are so many things you wanna do when you get this new combat stuff in, you wanna add all sorts of things that make it more and more realistic or whatever and so we drew the line. We were thinking about letting you sort of guard a square in a direction, so you'd sort of set your weapon like a spear in a certain direction so someone can't even enter that square, and it's going to be interesting when we start controlling space so that all the battles don't end up with two people next to each other all the time, 'cause people should be farther away from each other especially when fighting with weapons than they are right now, where it's, there's still no..

it's like there's all the interesting things about attacks interweaving with each other and so on but there's still no kind of calm periods or testing periods and it, it's not quite sure where that's going to fit in. And reach is a part of that, getting tired and like, losing your gas tank is part of that. Also though there's a there's a big psychological aspect of that, about seeing what the other person's gonna do and almost kinda playing poker with them to try and figure out.. do they always fall into a pattern where they jab left, jab right or whatever. And then there's a lot of things that come into fighting somebody that slows the pace down and we can only try to approximate this as best we can and we haven't really attempted that yet.

But it's definitely, for for people who still think that, that, that, you know it's way too wild right now the way people just kinda go at each other like beasts, it's, that's something we acknowledge and you know, I just mentioned, you know three or so things that would definitely help and I'm sure there's more out there. So they're all do-able, the psychological one's kinda the hardest, ‘cause I mean are you supposed to kind of memorize the patterns or just have the game give you a bonus over time if you're a better fighter than they are or something like that, the longer you fight them the more you kinda figure them out and get bonuses are some of the... so there's abstract ways to do it there are non-abstract ways to do it, we haven't really thought about what angle we're gonna take.

Toady, do you ever plan on moving away from tiles/increasing the resolution of tiles? Of course, this would likely come WELL after multi-tile creatures, so the question is a little premature.

As far as increasing the resolution of tiles - it has always been possible for you to use higher resolution tiles that suit your set up.
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iceball3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3516 on: February 26, 2016, 07:29:28 pm »


As far as increasing the resolution of tiles - it has always been possible for you to use higher resolution tiles that suit your set up.
I think they mean resolution as in the resolution of mechanical detail, not graphical resolution.
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burned

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3517 on: February 26, 2016, 08:27:40 pm »


As far as increasing the resolution of tiles - it has always been possible for you to use higher resolution tiles that suit your set up.
I think they mean resolution as in the resolution of mechanical detail, not graphical resolution.

I parsed their question with "and/or" in place of their "/" - I'm not sure how else to interpret what they meant. But, out of all the games that exist that will see an increase in "mechanical detail" - this is that game.

So, yes, there will be an increase in mechanical detail. ;]
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3518 on: February 27, 2016, 04:07:52 pm »

I parsed their question with "and/or" in place of their "/" - I'm not sure how else to interpret what they meant. But, out of all the games that exist that will see an increase in "mechanical detail" - this is that game.

So, yes, there will be an increase in mechanical detail. ;]
I read it as pixel-based/freeform movement and placement or the like (which isn't particularly likely to happen).
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3519 on: February 28, 2016, 01:42:03 am »

What's the intended behavior for small goblin ambushes/sieges? Small groups of goblins will occasionally turn up before you hit the population trigger, then leave pretty quickly. Are these supposed to be ambushes? Thief groups? Simply lost goblins on their way to somewhere else? Goblin entities don't seem to have the [AMBUSHER] tag, but there seems to be some confusion as to what this tag actually does/is supposed to do.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3520 on: February 28, 2016, 01:43:36 am »

What's the intended behavior for small goblin ambushes/sieges? Small groups of goblins will occasionally turn up before you hit the population trigger, then leave pretty quickly. Are these supposed to be ambushes? Thief groups? Simply lost goblins on their way to somewhere else? Goblin entities don't seem to have the [AMBUSHER] tag, but there seems to be some confusion as to what this tag actually does/is supposed to do.

Which is bloody weird because goblins are supposed to send ambushes. Then again, in early DF2012 the siege token had been removed from goblins and they'd siege anyway... :V
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3521 on: February 28, 2016, 06:59:59 am »

What has kept you from making it possible to define items at a creature level?  So instead of having to have an entity in order not to walk about unarmed and naked, we would have tags along the lines of [CREATURE_HELMET:X] which would result in items being spawned along with the creatures clusters. What exactly are your plans to equip uncivilized intelligents, surely them walking around naked and unarmed is not the final intent?
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3522 on: February 28, 2016, 12:31:41 pm »

What has kept you from making it possible to define items at a creature level?  So instead of having to have an entity in order not to walk about unarmed and naked, we would have tags along the lines of [CREATURE_HELMET:X] which would result in items being spawned along with the creatures clusters. What exactly are your plans to equip uncivilized intelligents, surely them walking around naked and unarmed is not the final intent?
Smells... sugestiony.

My guess is that the most straightforward implementation would be to let truly uncivilized creatures just equip stuff they find.  As for nomadic bands and proto-civilizations, that is already planned for the distant future iirc.  Or maybe that was wishful thinking on my part :)
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3523 on: February 28, 2016, 05:55:19 pm »

What's the intended behavior for small goblin ambushes/sieges? Small groups of goblins will occasionally turn up before you hit the population trigger, then leave pretty quickly. Are these supposed to be ambushes? Thief groups? Simply lost goblins on their way to somewhere else? Goblin entities don't seem to have the [AMBUSHER] tag, but there seems to be some confusion as to what this tag actually does/is supposed to do.

Which is bloody weird because goblins are supposed to send ambushes. Then again, in early DF2012 the siege token had been removed from goblins and they'd siege anyway... :V
Well [SIEGER] is for humans and dwarves. It implies a specific method of sieging, wherein they actually siege rather than just send large forces to attack. They make some campfires and wait around outside your fortress, which will presumably end up starving you once the food and caravan revamp happens where it's actually going to be likely you'll depend on outside food sources for food.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3524 on: February 28, 2016, 07:18:26 pm »

Not just the food and caravan revamp, but the siege revamp. The development page suggests digging through your walls, and finding better ways into your fortress once they discover the hallway-full-of-murder, and we've already got climbing. Maybe someday they'll even chop down your trees to build battering rams and trebuchets.
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