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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1247569 times)

Sizik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4125 on: April 29, 2016, 07:49:50 am »

I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?
Dwarves have shorter legs than humans, so are probably slower. They probably aren't in much a hurry to begin with. It's not a good idea to work backwards from speed when we don't know how fast a dwarf should be.

Tiles have been loosely defined as 2 meters wide, at least until Toady decides to rework them. Creatures and items have been given definitive volumes in the raws, but that's useless when everything fits in one tile.

Also, Fortress mode ticks are 72 seconds, not 1 second, so by that math each tile should be 724 meters.
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4126 on: April 29, 2016, 08:37:01 am »

Also, Fortress mode ticks are 72 seconds, not 1 second, so by that math each tile should be 724 meters.
One seed per tile makes so much more sense if the tiles are 724 meters on a side!
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4127 on: April 29, 2016, 09:47:04 am »

Yeesh. And I thought the discussion of "wait, how much is a tile?" was silly for CDDA. At least in that case the only "what the fuck" moment to be had was when realizing that vehicle speeds didn't match up with the likely sizes of tiles.
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Button

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4128 on: April 29, 2016, 09:51:02 am »

Also, Fortress mode ticks are 72 seconds, not 1 second, so by that math each tile should be 724 meters.
One seed per tile makes so much more sense if the tiles are 724 meters on a side!

Not to mention trees that go up 5 or 6 tiles....
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4129 on: April 29, 2016, 11:56:11 am »

This argument comes and goes. I've taken every side on it; I've been the dog. I've finally come to the conclusion that Dwarf Fortress simply isn't too concerned with scalar issues and focuses instead on events and narrative, making sacrifices where nessisary to maintain some level of functionality.

As a result, there's no real answer to the question of "how big the world is." It goes from the pole to the equator, and (generally) is about as wide.

Unfortunately, that never ends the argument. It'll quiet down in time.
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4130 on: April 29, 2016, 12:17:23 pm »

This argument comes and goes. I've taken every side on it; I've been the dog. I've finally come to the conclusion that Dwarf Fortress simply isn't too concerned with scalar issues and focuses instead on events and narrative, making sacrifices where nessisary to maintain some level of functionality.

As a result, there's no real answer to the question of "how big the world is." It goes from the pole to the equator, and (generally) is about as wide.

Unfortunately, that never ends the argument. It'll quiet down in time.
The game needs dwarves to take several ticks to get from one tile to another simply so that some other "fast" creatures can move across the screen faster than dwarves without skipping tiles in the middle.  If that seems game-y, too bad.
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4131 on: April 29, 2016, 03:22:11 pm »

I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?
Dwarves have shorter legs than humans, so are probably slower. They probably aren't in much a hurry to begin with. It's not a good idea to work backwards from speed when we don't know how fast a dwarf should be.

The raws explicitly state exactly how fast a dwarf should be.

Code: [Select]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_BIPED_GAITS:900:711:521:293:1900:2900] 30 kph
(293/900)*30 = 9.766... km/h when walking, so at their walking pace, dwarves go at about 2.7 m/s, or 6 miles per hour.

Strolling pace is a more reasonable 4.62 km/h, or about 1.28 meters per second, or 2.8 miles per hour.

blue sam3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4132 on: April 29, 2016, 03:50:08 pm »

I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?

2.5 mph is really slow. That's the sort of speed estimate you use for planning walks with small children. 4-5mph is more reasonable.
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TheFlame52

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4133 on: April 29, 2016, 06:52:18 pm »

4-5 mph is a jog. Have you ever walked on a treadmill before?

falcc

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4134 on: April 30, 2016, 01:17:32 am »

With the upcoming myth generator it looks like random playable creatures can have all kinds of properties. Will dwarves ever start with things like immortality, lack of thirst, or lack of alcohol dependency; or are the creatures in the raws going to remain more static?

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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4135 on: April 30, 2016, 12:37:34 pm »

The speed/tile calculations run into problems the other way. At Spd: 10.0 I can tackle someone and while they are in mid-air I can run ahead of them and light a campfire then heat a flask full of ice enough to melt it, drink it, and then chuck some of it in the general direction of Mr. Unlucky McAirborne. There are all sorts of problems with the time calculations there.
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Cormack

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4136 on: April 30, 2016, 01:54:27 pm »

I, for one, hope that DF will, over time, beocme much more than a roguelike/fortress building game. I hope that one would be able to call it the "fantasy world simulation" - with real worlds, histories behind characters, laws, stories, secret lore, books, philosophy, religions, political and economical systems, all generated by the simulation.

I hope that it can be a simulator in which you could live your life in the fantasy world, not constrained by anything other than logic of the world and your imagination.

I don't care about slaying dragons, really, I'd much rather command armies in the field - lead them, supply them, care about my men and make sure that they have something to eat and drink. Or to be a wandering minstrel, whose stories would become part of the world's lore and which I could share with other players. Or a quiet tavern owner who serves the best beer that he makes himself. There are many roguelikes, but only one game like that. And that would be the difference.
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blue sam3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4137 on: April 30, 2016, 05:51:05 pm »

4-5 mph is a jog. Have you ever walked on a treadmill before?

I know that if I walk for an hour, I'll be 4-5 miles away. I walk pretty quick.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4138 on: April 30, 2016, 11:15:20 pm »

I've been doing some math about possible tile sizes. It takes an average dwarf 9 ticks to walk 1 tile, which equates to 10 meters at WolframAlpha's 2.5 mph estimate. This means the map sizes in the "Create World" menu are Wales, Israel, Portugal, Germany, and Iran. A standard 4x4 embark is about 910 acres, and with 200 dwarves, that's about average (142 people per square mile) population density. Does 10x10 make more sense than 2x2 tile sizes?
Dwarves have shorter legs than humans, so are probably slower. They probably aren't in much a hurry to begin with. It's not a good idea to work backwards from speed when we don't know how fast a dwarf should be.

Tiles have been loosely defined as 2 meters wide, at least until Toady decides to rework them. Creatures and items have been given definitive volumes in the raws, but that's useless when everything fits in one tile.

Toady said 2.5 meters * 2.5 meters * 3 meters was the size used when he was setting up minecarts.  The creature speeds (which are measured in kph in the raws) fit with this.

Also, the largest map sizes are around the size of Ireland. (It therefore makes far more sense to consider DF maps "islands" or "regions" more than "worlds", at least unless there's a sudden increase in map size by an order of magnitude after the jump to 64 bits.)
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4139 on: May 01, 2016, 06:08:22 am »

I doubt there will. Large maps are already near-untenable to generate time-wise anyway. Spacewise, too, given enough time, but expanding the space limitation by a factor of 2^32 doesn't really make the time factor better.
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