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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1397322 times)

PTTG??

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4365 on: June 02, 2016, 01:12:11 am »

*Walks into thread, sees argument, turns around, walks out.*
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4366 on: June 02, 2016, 01:28:55 am »

Hmm. I am getting too invested in this, yes. Bad enough that I'm wishing Toady would put out some trivial fixes, goblin game balance versus lore is a bloody stupid thing to be griping about. :V
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"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

DG

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4367 on: June 02, 2016, 02:07:18 am »

For every one thing you don't like in DF, there'll be ten people who do like it, twenty people wanting you to just mod it for yourself, and the rest wondering why you think it's an issue.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 :D This reads to me like "I know you've said that you made goblins [NO_EAT] for lore reasons, but that's so dumb you must have other reasons, maybe subconscious ones. What are these other real reasons? Also, when do you think you'll realize how dumb [NO_EAT] goblins are and change it back to how they should be?" Good to see the return of the walking-hat-ball-thing avatar, btw.

I don't think they are set in stone in Tarn and Zach's minds yet. You can take that as an invitation to lobby for your ideal version of them but that should probably be done in Suggestions.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4368 on: June 02, 2016, 02:18:57 am »

:D This reads to me like "I know you've said that you made goblins [NO_EAT] for lore reasons, but that's so dumb you must have other reasons, maybe subconscious ones. What are these other real reasons? Also, when do you think you'll realize how dumb [NO_EAT] goblins are and change it back to how they should be?" Good to see the return of the walking-hat-ball-thing avatar, btw.

It's sad that I'm still convinced that the lore reason came after the now-unneeded gameplay reason. ;w;
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"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

conflictensues

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4369 on: June 02, 2016, 02:26:34 am »

For every one thing you don't like in DF, there'll be ten people who do like it, twenty people wanting you to just mod it for yourself, and the rest wondering why you think it's an issue.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 :D This reads to me like "I know you've said that you made goblins [NO_EAT] for lore reasons, but that's so dumb you must have other reasons, maybe subconscious ones. What are these other real reasons? Also, when do you think you'll realize how dumb [NO_EAT] goblins are and change it back to how they should be?" Good to see the return of the walking-hat-ball-thing avatar, btw.

I don't think they are set in stone in Tarn and Zach's minds yet. You can take that as an invitation to lobby for your ideal version of them but that should probably be done in Suggestions.

It's not like I don't get your point, but why the mockery?  It isn't like satire can't be used as a... shall we say, 'enlightening,' tool but I believe there is a time and place for it.  Hear in the threads you are just going to start a flame war.  All the civilizations will kill themselves in a blaze in spite of toady's best efforts to withhold the secrets of fire and the post-apocalyptic survivors will weigh down the interwebs for time beyond time with signs reading, "Don't feed the trolls."
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4370 on: June 02, 2016, 02:40:39 am »

Goblins not eating or drinking has a simple solution.

Just edit the raws to eat & drink, upgrade the goblins to hold nest boxes and have beak dogs be their all purpose pet. Theoretically infinite food from beak dog eggs as well as a good supply of gall stones (and hefty food returns off the beak dogs themselves) to sustain a fortress in and out of mode. [GEM_PREFERENCE][PACK_ANIMAL][WAGON_PULLER] and that's 2/3 of this basic economy out of the way.

It's just a pity that goblins can't cultivate via some kind of evil garden plant common domestic (([common_domestic][outdoor_gardens])) silver barb plants for extremely cheap and suitably quite nasty grog of gutter crour on goblin sites (or the open-endness to apply anything else to the raws). Not to mention fashionable black dye on all those subterreanean clothes ready to be embedded with your fancy bird gut stones in cheap designs.

Substitute outdoor gardens for indoor ones for plump helmets with some final tweaks here and there Viola! enjoy 'violence fortress 2.0'
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timotheos

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4371 on: June 02, 2016, 07:17:11 am »

Now that we have fully customisable job instructions (btw thanks this is really great) do you have any plans to look at the various stockpile options and break downs? Such as what comes under each category, the filter options and even a search option?

Now I don't have to put all my stone in different piles I'm really noticing how much I have to keep splitting the food pile for different productions. And all the different plant and animal types make it really hard to find particular ones to exclude/include. Plus the odd overlaps between clothes, armour and finished goods. and probably lots of other different player specific annoyances.
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DG

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4372 on: June 02, 2016, 08:01:05 am »

but why the mockery?

Yeah, fair point. It was needlessly snarky so I apologize for that.

Theoretically infinite food from beak dog eggs as well as a good supply of gall stones (and hefty food returns off the beak dogs themselves) to sustain a fortress in and out of mode.

You have to consider what it is the beak dogs are eating in such quantities to be able to lay all the eggs and provide all the meat that the goblins get from them. Food production and consumption in DF isn't realistic but should improve over time. Entire populations of giant whatevers needing to eat and how they get enough is more of a problem in my mind than goblins not doing it. Current farming (especially underground) throws up more believability issues for me than goblins, too.
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Thundercraft

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4373 on: June 02, 2016, 08:47:54 am »

Either through Adventure or Fortress Mode, will there ever be some way to convert part of an Evil or Good biome to neutral (neither)? If nothing else, will there be some way to stop Evil Rain or Evil Clouds, such as through prayers to a deity, through magic, or some other mystical effect or reaction?

Similarly:
Will there eventually be a way for the actions of an Adventurer to create a new Evil or Good area?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4374 on: June 02, 2016, 09:42:57 am »

My understanding is that evil/good biomes are going to be reworked as part of the myth/magic stuff. However, the underlying question of whether sphere influences can be induced/manipulated/adjusted by the player is a good one (as well as the follow on question of whether this will happen* in the near or the far future, if the answer is yes).

*Subject to whims, obstacles, and derails.
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4375 on: June 02, 2016, 09:43:32 am »

So the next big update is the "artifact update" right? I got some questions about what kinds of artifacts will appear.

1. Will there be artifacts with "souls", like a talking sword or maybe a soul jar that an important person could store their own soul in. I think you've addressed this topic before and said you wanted to implement it sooner or later, but will it appear in the "artifact update"?

2. Will your dwarves be able to create artifacts that are actual living(or non-living) units? Like a golem of some kind.

3. Will there be multi-part artifacts? Say something really powerful like a door to the demon/god realm would need both the door itself and the keystone needed to power it that is made separately.

4. I think you've said something about artifacts getting different effects depending of what caused their making (fey, inspiration by gods, possession etc.). What are the current plans regarding the differences?

ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4376 on: June 02, 2016, 09:49:48 am »

So the next big update is the "artifact update" right? I got some questions about what kinds of artifacts will appear.

1. Will there be artifacts with "souls", like a talking sword or maybe a soul jar that an important person could store their own soul in. I think you've addressed this topic before and said you wanted to implement it sooner or later, but will it appear in the "artifact update"?

2. Will your dwarves be able to create artifacts that are actual living(or non-living) units? Like a golem of some kind.

3. Will there be multi-part artifacts? Say something really powerful like a door to the demon/god realm would need both the door itself and the keystone needed to power it that is made separately.

4. I think you've said something about artifacts getting different effects depending of what caused their making (fey, inspiration by gods, possession etc.). What are the current plans regarding the differences?

Questions in lime green.

Thundercraft

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4377 on: June 02, 2016, 10:55:40 am »

You have to consider what it is the beak dogs are eating in such quantities to be able to lay all the eggs and provide all the meat that the goblins get from them. Food production and consumption in DF isn't realistic but should improve over time.

In terms of both realism and game balance, there are a lot of aspects of DF that could use tweaks, not just food production and consumption. If you question what beak dogs could eat in order to (theoretically) provide enough eggs and meat for goblins, consider: (1) There are many carnivores in the game and, unlike grazers, what they eat is not simulated. This includes even common domestic animals like dogs and pigs. (2) I'd imagine that Beak Dogs would be much like pigs from hell: They'd eat practically anything, from roots and whole plants to bugs and other vermin, from tripe and other animal/humanoid parts to feces. (Pigs really are that gross!) (3) Goblins would most likely not rely entirely on Beak Dog eggs and flesh, also consuming other things.

Spoiler: Consider, too: (click to show/hide)

Current farming (especially underground) throws up more believability issues for me than goblins, too.

While it may seem far-fetched for such to grow fast enough to sustain a civilization, underground farming does not give me much pause in terms of believably. Life has a way of filling empty niches. Bacteria can grow not just in soil, water, and flesh, but also in acidic hot springs, radioactive waste, and in rocks nearly 2 miles deep into the earth. They can even subsist on dissolved compounds, like hydrogen sulfide and methane near hydrothermal vents. Some microbes can even grow in the vacuum of space.

Aside from bacteria, certain types of fungi thrive in the absence of light. Mushrooms and molds are able to derive nourishment from breaking down organic matter.

As for what organic matter sustains underground crops in DF, they grow on soil or muddied rock. Many soils are rich in organic matter. We can also use fertilizer to increase yields. And while not simulated, what do you imagine happens to the feces of the inhabitants of a fort, particularly the animals and any imprisoned creatures?

Myself, I like to imagine that many underground crops are similar to lichens. Lichens are not plants. They're two species in a symbiotic relationship - either fungus with algae or fungus with cyanobacteria. Now, imagine an exotic fungus in a symbiotic relationship with a bacteria that can break down the minerals in clay or soil to form nutrients it can use.

If that still sounds too fantastic, consider:
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4378 on: June 02, 2016, 01:56:01 pm »

So the next big update is the "artifact update" right? I got some questions about what kinds of artifacts will appear.

1. Will there be artifacts with "souls", like a talking sword or maybe a soul jar that an important person could store their own soul in. I think you've addressed this topic before and said you wanted to implement it sooner or later, but will it appear in the "artifact update"?

2. Will your dwarves be able to create artifacts that are actual living(or non-living) units? Like a golem of some kind.

3. Will there be multi-part artifacts? Say something really powerful like a door to the demon/god realm would need both the door itself and the keystone needed to power it that is made separately.

4. I think you've said something about artifacts getting different effects depending of what caused their making (fey, inspiration by gods, possession etc.). What are the current plans regarding the differences?

Questions in lime green.
Thanks, fixed it.

Nopenope

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4379 on: June 02, 2016, 06:15:01 pm »

Have games, recipes etc. been put off completely from this release arc? If yes, are they planned for the artifact release? Or boats? Or starting scenarios?
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