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Author Topic: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Werezombie Cloning Tech (What in Armok's name?!))  (Read 204808 times)

Mimodo

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot]
« Reply #165 on: August 17, 2014, 11:50:33 pm »

Unless there was a change that I missed since .40 dropped, dwarves don't actually train climbing by climbing, but only by catching themselves when they jump or fall.

My interpretation of the wiki page is that they gain exp from climbing (except trees), AND from catching walls (including trees). I haven't had any experience with this personally though.
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Repseki

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot]
« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2014, 05:11:58 am »

While nice for science, climbing training probably isn't the most important when it comes to child care, unless I missed something and it also has an impact on attributes.

Then again, if a decent enough way to train it can be found I might have to design "American Gladiator" style bridges for dwarves to duel various dangerous thing...
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khearn

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot]
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2014, 12:51:29 pm »

I suppose if you had soldiers with high climbing skill, you could send them to battle invaders on a narrow bridge with deep but narrow pits on either side. If the invaders dodge, they fall to their deaths. If the dwarves dodge, they start to fall but grab the wall and climb back up. Kind of a dodge-fall trap without the traps. But it's got sooo many ways it could go wrong. Other than that, I don't see a whole lot of value in training climbing.

   Keith
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m-logik

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot]
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2014, 02:09:22 pm »

My interpretation of the wiki page is that they gain exp from climbing (except trees), AND from catching walls (including trees). I haven't had any experience with this personally though.

It could work differently in fort mode, but my adventurers have only gained climbing experience when catching themselves while falling or jumping. I've never actually seen a dwarf climb in fort mode. Or anything else except troglodytes.
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khearn

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot]
« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2014, 02:48:13 pm »

I had a dodge-fall trap next to my barracks, and I happened to look at it and saw a soldier go from the barracks to the trap hall and move out over the pit. I thought he was going to fall, but he didn't get the cyan background a falling unit gets, and he proceeded to move downward at a constant pace, not accelerating like a falling unit does. He climbed down to the bottom, grabbed a piece of armor sitting there, and went about his business. He was a migrant who arrived with some climbing skill, and I guess he figured it was the shortest way down.

Gave me a bit of a scare at first, though.

   Keith
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ImagoDeo

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot]
« Reply #170 on: August 19, 2014, 10:20:34 am »

I've updated the main page with a bit of news. My own efforts toward testing this are sitting on the backburner whilst college classes get rolling and my friends distract me with Minecraft, but in my spare time as the semester goes on I'll keep hammering away at it. As soon as Toady refuses to release more bug fix updates, I expect I'll find more spare time to devote to this, because a stable version that won't screw with my plans is quite necessary.

I'm excited to see the recent developments you are all making, though. Staalo in particular seems to be doing excellent work. I like the danger room effectiveness - 34.x wouldn't have let us do that because of the fragility of the dwarven skull. Can you clarify a bit how you forced/allowed kids to wear protective clothing? I think it'd be nice to know for my own efforts.
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McDonald

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #171 on: August 19, 2014, 02:00:37 pm »

I think children will grab anything they have on hand when they turn 1. Just lock the mothers with babies in a room with protective clothing and wait.
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Staalo

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #172 on: August 19, 2014, 02:05:41 pm »

Why, thank you!. Actually, I'm having a bit of a setback since a computer hiccup ate about six months work. I'm only now getting to the same point I was before the crash: first students are getting to Proficient levels and the mist generators are soon online.

I decided to leave out Climbing training and instead will build some kind of a monster-in-the-closet solution to build up Discipline. As soon as I manage to catch a live hostile creature, that is.

One thing I didn't notice before is that danger room training also trains Observation which will be handy if this fort ever gets any goblin attention. I'd believe there'll be some very surprised snatchers around Searingmines some day.

Protective clothing is not an issue if there's simply enough clothes to go around; the children will equip everything they can if it's available. I started producing cloaks, hoods, shoes, trousers, robes and mittens by their hundreds right from the beginning and have been buying every single scrap of cloth and leather from every caravan since year one. I now have several Legendary Leatherworkers in the fort.

I had this kind of setup in my last 34.11 fortress as well and the fragile skulls weren't a problem; instead there were constant wrist injuries since I had neglected to produce enough mittens for everyone. The best students were Expert level when I abandoned the school.
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Scruiser

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #173 on: August 19, 2014, 10:55:14 pm »

PTW
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HmH

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot]
« Reply #174 on: August 20, 2014, 03:28:36 am »

I suppose if you had soldiers with high climbing skill, you could send them to battle invaders on a narrow bridge with deep but narrow pits on either side. If the invaders dodge, they fall to their deaths. If the dwarves dodge, they start to fall but grab the wall and climb back up. Kind of a dodge-fall trap without the traps. But it's got sooo many ways it could go wrong. Other than that, I don't see a whole lot of value in training climbing.

   Keith
Dwarves don't grab the walls mid-flight. It's a bug with the AI.

Tested the nuclear reactor in Arena. When dwarves jump out of someone's flight path, they just step away and switch places with other dwarves instead of actually jumping.
Because of that, the only kind of a chain reaction you could cause is a dangerous and completely useless one, where dwarves fail to jump out of the way and end up getting send flying themselves, and several such failures in a row are extremely unlikely to happen unless the dwarves in question are unconscious.
Conclusion: dwarf-based nuclear reactors cannot be designed in such a way as to train dodging.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 03:33:12 am by HmH »
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Staalo

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #175 on: August 20, 2014, 07:35:04 am »

Got mist generators finally running but the training rate for swimming is very, very slow. At least they are keeping students happy. Some students are approaching Adept levels in combat skills; that's almost a third of the experience required to reach Legendary.

Two students dropped out of the school, having reached adulthood before reaching Legendary. Those two were older kids from a migrant wave, luckily most of the other students are fortress born, five years or younger. Funnily enough one of the dropouts got elected mayor immediately after that. I'm predicting all future mayors will be boarding school alumnis, with students having nothing to do but socialize and making friends for a decade.

Right now I'm digging a scare closet where a monster will be periodically revealed by a drawbridge; I'm hoping this will build Discipline at tolerable rate. The timing mechanism will be a challenge, though. After that I'll have to find and capture a suitable monster; at this moment there aren't any other hostiles on the map except a poison-spitting Forgotten Beast.
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Repseki

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #176 on: August 20, 2014, 08:51:02 am »

Quote
a poison-spitting Forgotten Beast

That seems like a perfectly suitable monster to me. Dodging a glob of deadly poison should be easy compared to being constantly battered by wooden spears. Any children that can't do that will just end up helping the others with their Discipline.
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khearn

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #177 on: August 20, 2014, 10:49:19 am »

For your timer, just have a room that fills with water until a pressure plate is at 7/7, then it empties and starts refilling. The pressure plate should be set to be on from 0/7 to 6/7, so it will send an 'off' to lower the bridge when it gets to 7/7. Have one whole wall be a bridge that is opened by the plate so it will drain quickly, and have the water come in through a diagonal so it fills slowly. How long it takes is simply a function of the size. If it's too quick, dig out some more space. If it's too slow, build some walls inside to make it smaller.

   Keith
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #178 on: August 21, 2014, 12:03:49 pm »

It seems that Staalo's system works quite well, but woudn't it be ideal if the children were subjected to mild injuries, such that they would train discipline, healing, etc?

I wonder if this could be accomplished relatively safely by using a coinstar pit with appropriate objects in it.  If an object could be found which causes only bruises to skin, and nothing more, then the children would get constant injuries without any threat of serious ones.  Some possible choices of objects:
1) training axes/swords - relatively light, very large contact area hits (it is correct that thrown weapons use their weapon attack properties rather than calculating contact area based on size?)
2) medium sized coin stacks (increase the number of coins until they just start to cause bruises)
3) clothing - not sure about this one

One issue would be that the smaller parts of the body (fingers, ears, etc) are more vulnerable, as the contact area of an attack is the smaller of the weapon contact area and the size of the body part (The momentum required to penetrate tissue scales inversely with contact area).  Therefore, it might be beneficial to make the children wear mittens, boots, and hoods, but not pants or shirts.  Then the clothing should protect the sensitive smaller areas (and train armor user) while the upper and lower body would get bruised by the flying objects.

Someone earlier in this thread had voiced the concern that wearing clothing would be a problem for coinstar, as then dropped worn out clothing would be a deadly projectile.  Is this known to be a problem?  If it is, will children respect burrows well enough that you could keep the new clothes separate from the training area, and then order the children into the clothing room periodically to change?  This might also require an "airlock" room in between, as I believe dwarves tend to drop worn-out clothing whereever they are when they get the idea to change their clothes...

One other thought - is it possible to build pressure plates on the same square as the retracting bridges?  I suspect not, but if it is, then you could imagine placing a pressure plate under each bridge, which triggers the opposite bridge.  Then the children would trigger their own training, and more importantly training would automatically shut down if the test subject stops moving for any reason, allowing recuperation time if thrown objects prove a little too deadly.

TheHossofMoss

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Re: Dwarven Child Care [Reboot] (Dodging Nuclear Reactors!)
« Reply #179 on: August 21, 2014, 02:29:59 pm »

This thread reminds me so much of how the Spartans were with their children... and I love it.
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