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Author Topic: The Legends Project  (Read 6029 times)

blaster395

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The Legends Project
« on: July 18, 2014, 10:30:28 pm »

I feel it's long been speculated that something like this would be worthwhile, but I am yet to see anyone do it well. The goal of this project is to produce a detailed setting from the legends files in Dwarf Fortress. There are a long list of obstacles to doing this, and I might as well begin at first big obstacle. Legends is actually pretty dull. For the first 100 years, civilizations expand to their maximum ever size. Then, over then next 100 years, about 2 conquests happen. After that, nothing happens and the world enters permanent stasis. It needs to be modded to be more conductive to warfare, shifting borders, slow but steady expansion and interesting figures.

The primary objective is to get the game to a point where world generation can run for 3,000 years without entering stasis, for all 4 races to be of roughly equal power and not just curbstomp eachother out of existance, for all races to expand slowly and only really reach their maximum size after 2,000 years, for races to be able to expand across the entire map except for the interiors of mountain regions and for conquests of locations to be far more frequent and for larger populations/settlements. For wars between civilizations to continue occurring throughout generation.

Secondary objectives are: Splitting Elves into High Elves that live in cities, and Wood Elves that live in forests. Making megabeasts survive world generation for longer. Expanding the nobility systems. Allow all races to be vampire or necromancer or whatever historical figures. Add a second human race that is suited to living in snowy climates.



I have already experimented with a bunch of changes. I modified the Small Island world generator to run for up to 10,000 years (but didn't actually leave it that long, it's just so I can keep it running as long as I need), have 40 civilizations, no population limit and no site limit. I also modified Dwarfs, Goblins, Elves and Humans to [BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_LAND:1] so that they will expand anywhere and are more willing to conquer cities of other races. I multiplied entity pop limits and site pop limits by 10.

The results are as follows:

In 325 years there were 165 conquests of settlements. Most of these were entities attacking civilizations changes (I presume this is civil war style). The last cross-civilization conquest was in 145, so I shall use this as the basis for when a world enters stasis. After 183 almost all wars declared were between entities and civilizations, instead of civilizations and civilizations. Cities seem to be soft-capped at 10,000 population per race in the city, because there were a bunch slightly over 10,000 and none higher than 11000. Civilizations stopped expanding after 140, and left about 15% of the world in the Northwest corner uninhabited for some reason. Four civilizations were wiped out, the last one being wiped out in 323 due to being conquered by unknown (judging by the pop list, it looks like all the inhabitants just died; all that remains is animals). The most warlike zone was the southwest island, where in one war 70 pillages took place and over 12000 people were killed.

There were a total of 342 wars, 1905 battles, 165 conquests and 1045 sites. Humans are the dominant race at 158,551 population. There are a total of 146,824 battle deaths.

These results are far superior to the default world gen, which seems to give me about 10 conquests when run with the same map. However, it's still not that great since it reaches stasis within 150 years. I am looking for other people willing to contribute research and progress in this complicated balancing act that is making legends interesting.

Lastly, the trade map of the world, which I personally find to be the best way to look at it outside of legends viewer.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Moonlighter

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 09:27:29 pm »

This seems interesting...
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Alev

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 09:54:31 pm »

PTW
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cephalo

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 10:17:45 pm »

Trying to avoid stasis sounds easier said than done. If the purpose of world gen is to provide a diverse setting with all of the games possibilities, it kinda goes against that to try and free that process up too much. If you really let civs expand and make war according to nature, there would most likely be a clear winner in not very much time. Having all the races well represented is artificial to begin with, so the question is, how best to arrive at this artificial result?
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PerfectWorldDF World creator utility for Dwarf Fortress.

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Redzephyr01

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 10:48:01 pm »

PTW
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WaffleEggnog

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2014, 10:51:05 pm »

This seems really interesting

PTW
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Sebastian2203

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2014, 07:56:48 am »

I have to disagree with your statement Blaster

Yesterday I have generated many worlds and from my observations none of them entered "statis" even after 300 years of generation.

I am using totally clean DF 40.03 ,no changes in raws.
And I am totally content with the way world gen is running now. It is interesting, I have wars there are inssurections and so on.

The way you described "World gen is dull" is not truth in my case.

Thats my two cents.
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exdeathbr

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 07:47:43 pm »

Well the first step to make our collective setting, would be to collectivelly select all the world parameters values.
This specific part, collectivelly decide a world parameter, was tried before by myself, but people didnt had enought interest.
We could try it again.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 09:20:34 am by exdeathbr »
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94dima94

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2014, 04:39:22 am »

PTW, this sounds interesting.

Maybe those settings do create a world without many possibilities for the player, but it could become the "legends mode special", a special set of raws we can use to run world expecially for this reason.
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Loam

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 09:15:45 am »

I think to get any real results you'll need a lot more modding, especially of the entity and creature files. I've noticed that Elves tend to kick far too much ass in worldgen, which I attribute to their war animals (giant lions/tigers/bears, etc). I'm not sure how worldgen battles are decided, but it's clear it has to do with the creature's stats/size/general deadliness. Nerfing some of the worst offenders, such as the aformentioned giant elf-beasts, would go a long way towards balance.

As far as keeping the world interesting, you need to make sure the civilizations have a reason to go to war constantly. Right now their sphere alignments and ethics (other than Elves, once again) are not opposed enough to push them to war (that was so in 34.11, I haven't looked at many legends in 40.xx; it does seem that humans go to war a lot more now, they used to never fight anyone).

Some other thoughts: I noticed in the last version that any world older than ~500 years would have most of its population killed by vampires/werebeasts/night creatures of all kinds; I'd enter towns that would be completely abandoned and surrounded by lairs. My solution was to mod in some new deity curses like blindness or deformity, so that angry gods wouldn't always create unkillable monsters. Also, necromancers became far too prevalent; a few necros are interesting, but several dozen towerfulls of them is just a pain. It might be less of a problem now that people can have other goals that just "immortality," but its still worth looking into.
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Scruiser

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2014, 08:46:51 pm »

PTW, sounds like a cool project.  Make sure to try some of the third party legends viewers and world map viewers if you want to make things easier on yourself.

I think to get any real results you'll need a lot more modding, especially of the entity and creature files. I've noticed that Elves tend to kick far too much ass in worldgen, which I attribute to their war animals (giant lions/tigers/bears, etc). I'm not sure how worldgen battles are decided, but it's clear it has to do with the creature's stats/size/general deadliness. Nerfing some of the worst offenders, such as the aformentioned giant elf-beasts, would go a long way towards balance.

As far as keeping the world interesting, you need to make sure the civilizations have a reason to go to war constantly. Right now their sphere alignments and ethics (other than Elves, once again) are not opposed enough to push them to war (that was so in 34.11, I haven't looked at many legends in 40.xx; it does seem that humans go to war a lot more now, they used to never fight anyone).

Some other thoughts: I noticed in the last version that any world older than ~500 years would have most of its population killed by vampires/werebeasts/night creatures of all kinds; I'd enter towns that would be completely abandoned and surrounded by lairs. My solution was to mod in some new deity curses like blindness or deformity, so that angry gods wouldn't always create unkillable monsters. Also, necromancers became far too prevalent; a few necros are interesting, but several dozen towerfulls of them is just a pain. It might be less of a problem now that people can have other goals that just "immortality," but its still worth looking into.
You will definitely want to mess with advanced world-gen options at the very least.  I would second the recommendation for modding.
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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 08:35:33 am »

I give up, what does "PTW" mean?  ???
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94dima94

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 09:52:14 am »

I give up, what does "PTW" mean?  ???
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The worst enemy you'll ever meet is the little voice that says Hey, this would be a cool/awesome/funny thing to do!/I wonder what happens if...
"Rock needs a nerf! Paper is just fine, IMO." - The Scissors.

HooliganintheFort

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 02:39:28 am »

PTW.
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JRHaggs

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Re: The Legends Project
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 04:06:56 pm »

I give up, what does "PTW" mean?  ???
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