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Author Topic: Best dwarven clothing type?  (Read 13382 times)

MeMyselfAndI

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Best dwarven clothing type?
« on: July 23, 2014, 09:39:50 am »

So, if I understand correctly, dwarves need at a minimum a shirt, vest, dress, robe, cloak, or coat, a skirt or pair of trousers, and a pair of shoes, sandals, or socks to prevent bad thoughts due to lack of clothing.

When I remove the things that a fortress cannot produce, I get: [shirt, vest, dress, robe, cloak, or coat], [pair of trousers] [pair of shoes or socks].

Are there any differences between the choices, or are they simply aesthetic? The DF wiki seems to indicate that dresses or robes are best due to coverage, and shoes are identical to socks, but I'm not sure. Am I omitting anything? If I tell my clother's shop or leatherworker's to repeat one robe, one pair of trousers, and two shoes, will that cause issues?

For that matter, what's the minimum set of leather armor that prevents bad thoughts from lack of clothing? Metal armor? Would a mail shirt and high boots work? The DF wiki mentions "if a mail shirt is combined with high boots, explicit leg covering can be omitted. (Dwarves don't have knees to protect, so upper leg from the shirt and lower leg from the boot is complete). " - is that just protection, or does that count for preventing bad thoughts due to lack of clothing as well? Do I need leggings as well?
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Niyazov

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 09:53:53 am »

If you don't include leg coverings in your uniform, dwarves will keep wearing their civilian pants or skirt, so there won't be an unhappy thought. Shoes are produced in pairs, so you don't need to make twice as many.

You should always have cloaks available, since they offer cheap coverage of almost the entire body. They are not especially helpful against weapon attacks but they are good for blocking animal bites, unarmed attacks, etc.
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MeMyselfAndI

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 10:05:59 am »

If you don't include leg coverings in your uniform, dwarves will keep wearing their civilian pants or skirt, so there won't be an unhappy thought.
But then the civilian pants or skirt will wear out, yes? The entire point of civilian armor for me is to prevent the insanity that is dwarves and worn-out clothing. Slightly less squishy dwarves is just an afterthought.
Shoes are produced in pairs, so you don't need to make twice as many.
So that's why I always have extra shoes lying around...
You should always have cloaks available, since they offer cheap coverage of almost the entire body. They are not especially helpful against weapon attacks but they are good for blocking animal bites, unarmed attacks, etc.
Hmm... According to the wiki, cloaks have a  UBSTEP of MAX and a LBSTEP of 1, whereas a rope has a UBSTEP of MAX and a LBSTEP of MAX. Unless I am (probably) reading it wrong, robes are better than cloaks. Or are you talking about in addition to?
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Niyazov

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 10:16:21 am »

Yeah, dwarves will automatically pick up a robe AND a cloak, since a robe is an "over" layer and a cloak is a "cover" layer. Ideally, you would keep robes, dresses ("under" layer) and cloaks available.

If you're trying to avoid worn-out clothing altogether, I don't know what to tell you. Clothing wear is intended to be part of the game and dwarves will get new clothes from stockpiles when their old ones wear out. Putting everyone in armor to avoid it is practically an exploit, really.
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MeMyselfAndI

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 11:04:09 am »

Yeah, dwarves will automatically pick up a robe AND a cloak, since a robe is an "over" layer and a cloak is a "cover" layer. Ideally, you would keep robes, dresses ("under" layer) and cloaks available.
So I don't want to keep multiple of [robe, cloak, dress] available, then. Good to know. That is, unless dwarves will get bad thoughts from not having both. Remember: I'm looking for a complete minimal set of clothes.
Putting everyone in armor to avoid it is practically an exploit, really.
Insofar as you can have exploits in a single-player sandbox game, well duh. That being said, if I was worried about not being exploit-y I'd first remove my quantum stockpiles, my pathfinding-exploiting traps, and my DWRs, stop exporting spiked balls...

Personally? I don't mind using any exploit that has been in the game multiple versions and has a simple fix. And this one has a simple fix: make armor also degrade over time.
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timotheos

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 11:48:18 am »

Minimum is shirt, trousers, shoes. ie one of each section. The only benefit of having more is that more nice things makes dwarves happier. So a nice cloak, & nice robe & nice dress is better than just a robe. Personally I also add gloves to stop the issues with picking up contaminated items.
Minimum non-metal armour is: leather armour (body), greaves (legs)(might need to make them from bone), leather boots (feet). I'd include gauntlets(bone) and helmets(leather) as well.
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greycat

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 12:38:32 pm »

The only benefit of having more is that more nice things makes dwarves happier. So a nice cloak, & nice robe & nice dress is better than just a robe.

This is not true in 0.34, and I haven't heard that it changed in 0.40 either.  Dwarves don't get happy thoughts from owning or wearing clothing.  They only get bad thoughts from not wearing it.  Wearing 7 upper body layers is no better than wearing 1simple tunic, as far as happiness goes.

Now, it could change in the future.  In fact, some 0.40 dwarves have personality traits like "doesn't mind wearing something nice once in a while", but to the best of my knowledge these traits don't do anything yet (or if they do anything, it's quite subtle).
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Loci

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2014, 03:15:03 pm »

The only benefit of having more is that more nice things makes dwarves happier. So a nice cloak, & nice robe & nice dress is better than just a robe.

This is not true in 0.34, and I haven't heard that it changed in 0.40 either.  Dwarves don't get happy thoughts from owning or wearing clothing.  They only get bad thoughts from not wearing it.  Wearing 7 upper body layers is no better than wearing 1simple tunic, as far as happiness goes.


No. There are no "happy thoughts" for owning clothing, but the value of owned items boosts a dwarf's base happiness level. Given enough valuable rags littering their quarters, your dwarves will remain near-constantly ecstatic.
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sirdave79

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 05:07:25 pm »

Also this might help

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136126.0

The dwarven compendium. Nice glossy pdf explaining the armour and layering (amongst other things) in different words to ther wiki. Cross referencing between both and playing the game might be helpful.

Its been said but for the purposes of not getting nakedness unhappy thoughts, the minimum requirement is chest leg and foot coverage. Ropes covering the chest (and possessing greater coverage than a shirt - which is what I usually use for chest coverage).

As you say MeMyselfAndI if u only make mail shirts and metal high boots, their civillian clothing trousers will rot off, so I would suggest metal leggings to go with mail shirts and high boots. If you go that far I think it would be remiss not to add a helmet (as DF skulls are interestingly modelled and result in a higher casualty rate with plumb strikes than other body parts) and since gauntlets are probably low weight (im assuming), I add those too (speaking for all citizens that dont mine or hunt).

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence from adventure mode posters that multiple cloaks (6 i think is the max with a mail shirt(s) can sometimes avert a blow. I think cloaks also protect the face, which helmets dont. I think the face has a low probability of being hit. There are masks and facemasks, veils and headscarfs too but I think dwarves cannot natively produce those. My understanding is that because cloaks are made out of relatively weak materials when compared with metal armour, ie cloth and leather (lets not discuss candy cloaks) that they will often be penetrated anyway. I tend to try and make all my military grade clothing out of leather, just in case leather is marginally tougher than cloth if I go to the trouble of adding cloaks, socks (actually not leather socks cause you cant) mittens etc to my standard "whole metal coverage".

Also with regards to clothing quality, from the wiki it is suggested that masterwork armour has a higher deflection rate than anything less. Coupling that with the fact that a cloak can deflect a blow to the face ive got to say that I beleive a masterwork cloak is probably more protective than a non masterwork

I personally find the layering and UPSTEP LBSTEP etc a bit confusing. It doesnt seem right that a character should be able to wear 6 mail shirts and doing so has ramifications for other areas, so I just go with single layer metal armour (usually steel) and fairly skilled dwarves are pretty untouchable in melee. Missile fire is another matter.

Yeah armouring all the civillians could be considered exploity, if we had a better UI and methods for controling/protecting/deffending I would be less likely to do it, and I dread the day when metal armour wears out. I hope we can repair stuff rather than having to continually replace metal armour. I armour all the civillians more so they dont die from a random raider when cutting wood outside my walls. Its quite a bit of work as well to actually get all the civillians armoured up so I feel like the reward of not having to continually replace clothing is a sort of pay off for good military practice. Not to mention the miners and hunters cant do their jobs with armour on. (I hope the latest version has changed that but ive got my doubts and havent tested yet).
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MeMyselfAndI

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 05:14:08 pm »

Owned items... So then just build a masterwork statue in their bedroom, and then you don't need to worry about yet more XXclothesXX scattered around.

Or are items in someone's room not counted as owned items?
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greycat

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2014, 06:07:14 pm »

Owned items... So then just build a masterwork statue in their bedroom, and then you don't need to worry about yet more XXclothesXX scattered around.

Or are items in someone's room not counted as owned items?

"Items in" a room (stone or barrel sitting on the floor) do not contribute to the room's value, and do not count as possessions of the dwarf whose room it is.

Furniture that has been built in a room (statues, cabinets, rope restraints) adds to the room's value.

Clothing that is owned by a dwarf counts as a possession of the dwarf (an owned item) regardless of where it is.

No. There are no "happy thoughts" for owning clothing, but the value of owned items boosts a dwarf's base happiness level. Given enough valuable rags littering their quarters, your dwarves will remain near-constantly ecstatic.

This is the first time I've heard this.  News to me!
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martinuzz

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2014, 07:09:28 pm »

Never heard that one either. now I must mass produce socks and mittens  :D
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timotheos

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 01:42:57 am »

I could have sworn I saw a new clothes happy thought. Maybe it was just that they weren't naked any more?
But I've never bothered maximising it, there are easier ways of making happy dwarves.
I do stick with gloves/mitten being essential though due to contamination risk.
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Larix

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Re: Best dwarven clothing type?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2014, 02:24:42 am »

Quote from: the wiki, "Thoughts"
Dwarven psychology is relatively simple. Dwarves start with a base happiness value that includes the value of property they own (clothes, etc.)

It doesn't state the source, but it came up in forum discussion and an "owned items" base happiness was confirmed by an executable-reader (probably Quietust).

Of note is that in recent versions, dwarfs usually only own their civilian clothes, nothing else. Items ordained by a uniform are not the dwarf's property, and owned items will only keep their owned status as long as they are worn or remain in a location owned by the dwarf. Loose owned items not stored in an owned room have their ownership time out after about a week.

Thus,
Quote
"Items in" a room (stone or barrel sitting on the floor) do not contribute to the room's value, and do not count as possessions of the dwarf whose room it is.

is correct as far as loose junk is concerned, but owned items (typically discarded clothes) in an owned room remain owned indefinitely and presumably contribute to the owner's base happiness. Even death doesn't revoke ownership - burialdwarfs will drag a deceased's clothes to their tomb if it's an actual room (defined with make "r"oom and designated to a dwarf, not just an "allowed for burial" built sarcophagus).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 02:42:48 am by Larix »
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