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Author Topic: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles  (Read 24684 times)

SomeStupidGuy

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #570 on: August 03, 2014, 08:30:02 pm »

Eh, fair enough. As I said, I'll just keep to the sidelines and keep my opinions to myself from here on out.

Hope I didn't cause the discussion too much harm.
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Mr. Strange

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #571 on: August 03, 2014, 08:33:10 pm »

Quote
An exhaustive government survey of rape and domestic violence ...
Is this the same people who did that wage gap thing mentioned earlier, was that on that other gender thread? Because I remember that had people in the actually study saying they found no evidence for wage gap, while press went all "Gender Wage Gap Still An Issue!!!!1!" over it.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #572 on: August 03, 2014, 08:44:51 pm »

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Reelya

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #573 on: August 03, 2014, 08:46:20 pm »

http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/04/the-startling-facts-on-female-sexual-aggression/

Stuff that girls do to guys, collected with the same survey methodology we use for female victimization - which is no surprise really, they just use the existing surveys as the basis and change the genders in the questions. If you cited any of these data with the genders reversed (women victimized by men) they'd be taken at face value, and seen as "smoking gun" proof of women being victimized due to male patriarchal power.

I've had some people (on Bay12) pick apart the methodology of these surveys in that link, saying they inflate the numbers of men assaulted by women by taking a really, really broad view of assault, but c'mon they're the exact same surveys that they use with women that have also been criticized for giving an inflated view of the problem.

Dismissing this data as "inflated" yet calling out anyone who says the female victimization is "inflated" when the surveys are basically identical is some serious, serious confirmation bias. Hell, the surveys for men are directly modeled on the surveys for women.

What am I saying here? That women aren't victimized? No. That men are "just as big victims". No, again. What I really think is that this proves the "patriarchy model" to explain all victimization is flawed. And relying on a flawed model leads to flawed policies which are ineffective, and don't protect victims.

It's also incredibly sexist when you think of it. The patriarchal theory relies on perceiving men as the active pursuer, and women as the passive pursued. This in itself is a very stereotypical patriarchal view, which the domestic violence and sexual assault lobby have not progressed beyond. Do we really think this is true? Since the entire view is so antiquated and cliched, it should be no surprise that the reality is a LOT more messy.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 08:58:45 pm by Reelya »
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Mr. Strange

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #574 on: August 03, 2014, 08:54:53 pm »

Quote
Let me bring in an anecdote. When I was at a student party once, around 25 years ago, a very drunk (and physically rather large) woman came on to me, very strongly indeed.  I tried to escape with a tactical toilet break. She followed me into the loo, forced me up against the basin, pushed her tongue into my mouth and her hand into my jeans. I had to summon up quite a lot of physical strength to escape. This may sound strange, but my understanding of the incident, then and now, was not that I had narrowly escaped being raped by her, but that she had narrowly escaped being raped by me.
Wat.
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Neonivek

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #575 on: August 03, 2014, 09:26:09 pm »

Quote
Let me bring in an anecdote. When I was at a student party once, around 25 years ago, a very drunk (and physically rather large) woman came on to me, very strongly indeed.  I tried to escape with a tactical toilet break. She followed me into the loo, forced me up against the basin, pushed her tongue into my mouth and her hand into my jeans. I had to summon up quite a lot of physical strength to escape. This may sound strange, but my understanding of the incident, then and now, was not that I had narrowly escaped being raped by her, but that she had narrowly escaped being raped by me.
Wat.

He felt like because he was in control that if he got raped by her he was essentially raping her because she would have done something she wouldn't have done under normal circumstances.

Even if he had to basically force her off him.

He isn't taught like most women are in these kinds of situations (Taught helplessness). Though as you can see the exact opposite has its own problems.
-Yeah... I am not happy about how rape is conceptualized. There is such a focus on victimizing the victim that many people honestly believe that it is basically a life ending incident and that the victim should not ever be expected to recover and that it is worse than murder... Which is frankly, to me, tantamount to saying that someone who is blinded in a car crash might as well commit suicide. Not that it isn't terrible, as many things are, but that it is exaggerated beyond reality.

MIND YOU!!! The feeling that your rape is your own dang fault is common regardless of gender. As well it isn't unusual for people to be raped and not realize it is rape.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 09:32:14 pm by Neonivek »
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Lyeos

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #576 on: August 03, 2014, 09:27:23 pm »

Quote
Let me bring in an anecdote. When I was at a student party once, around 25 years ago, a very drunk (and physically rather large) woman came on to me, very strongly indeed.  I tried to escape with a tactical toilet break. She followed me into the loo, forced me up against the basin, pushed her tongue into my mouth and her hand into my jeans. I had to summon up quite a lot of physical strength to escape. This may sound strange, but my understanding of the incident, then and now, was not that I had narrowly escaped being raped by her, but that she had narrowly escaped being raped by me.
Wat.

He felt like because he was in control that if he got raped by her he was essentially raping her because she would have done something she wouldn't have done under normal circumstances.

Even if he had to basically force her off him.
Kind of.
If she regretted it later, should could accuse him of rape and most likely win due to the 'Murrican legal system.
*Shrugs*
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #577 on: August 03, 2014, 09:30:03 pm »

And the British legal system, unfortunately.
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Neonivek

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #578 on: August 03, 2014, 09:34:19 pm »

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If she regretted it later, should could accuse him of rape and most likely win due to the 'Murrican legal system

While this is TRUE in that if she could prove that this rape took place that he would be sent to jail even though she raped him in this situation. (because he is an abled bodied man and she is an intoxicated woman)

The only reason why "False rape" tends not to be prosecuted is because "rape" is hard to actually prove in court. The only time I've seen a case where I honestly believed the woman in question was false reporting, mostly because her reputation was tarnished and her support basically convinced her it was rape so the accusation was a way to save her, it was recorded by the alleged rapists (and not even hidden) and she was the only one heavily drugged up (though everyone was drugged out)... And EVEN THEN that trial first hit a mistrial and then the defense waiting until the season was right and redone the trail where they were prosecuted. So even if she was telling the truth, which is still possible and likely as well, it took overwhelming evidence.

So as long as there were no cameras in the boy's bathroom he is fine.

So all in all I don't think fake rape accusations are too big a deal. Yes women are given the benefit of the doubt that they could have been raped, but even then they still have to prove it took place and it was non-consensual.

Quote
If she regretted it later

I find it has less to do with "regret". She isn't going to go "I shouldn't have done that" and then charged him for rape.

Mind you hitting him for child support IS an actual and realistic consequence that he might not be able to escape from... because GOOD LUCK proving she raped him (and also... being a rape victim I believe doesn't exempt you from child support).

---

Now mind you, I always like to look at cases the as if it could be "Guilty" or "Innocent" as how I judge how things are handled.

It is why I hate law shows like Special Victims Unit (or some terrible episodes of Law and Order) because they will go out of their way to harass, trick, or incriminate someone who very well could be innocent using tactics that would work on someone who was innocent. The worst being a case where a woman accused this guy of being a rapist, dragging him semi-willingly on stage to do it (semi-willingly in that she dragged him... but he could have stopped her using force), and they go out of their way to ensure he is in jail at all points AND the woman in question (and another person) posted sites that basically say terrible things about him. Honestly I wanted him to innocent, I knew he wasn't going to because the SVU are psychic, because really it could have been an episode about how the law is supposed to be objective and that the SVU put their own views and prejudices above that and harassed an innocent person who is actually the true victim in all of this.

Mind you I'd have no qualms if the SVU didn't harass the guy and the episode happened as normal (would have been a good episode about how the system can hide/cover rape)... But if they are going to harass him, there better be a point other then our LEGAL POLICE FORCE being vigilantes who are harassing someone because "They believe he did it", something the police shouldn't be doing and yet the episode treats it as the correct action.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 09:55:18 pm by Neonivek »
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Mr. Strange

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #579 on: August 03, 2014, 09:53:39 pm »

He felt like because he was in control that if he got raped by her he was essentially raping her because she would have done something she wouldn't have done under normal circumstances.

Even if he had to basically force her off him.

He isn't taught like most women are in these kinds of situations (Taught helplessness). Though as you can see the exact opposite has its own problems.

MIND YOU!!! The feeling that your rape is your own dang fault is common regardless of gender. As well it isn't unusual for people to be raped and not realize it is rape.
That, is not what a rape is. Rape is when one person forces other into having sex against their will. What either would have done in any other situation or circumstances is irrelevant since they are not in those situations or under those circumstances, what they do there and then is all that maters for the case. If it is done against the will of one participant it is rape, just because person is drunk doesn't mean they are not trying to force themselves on other person, they still attempted to rape someone.

So as long as there were no cameras in the boy's bathroom he is fine.

Quote
If she regretted it later

I find it has less to do with "regret". She isn't going to go "I shouldn't have done that" and then charged him for rape.
What fantasy land do you live in? It's all you need to send man to jail, just say he did it. Sheding few tears will almost guarantee it. That's why there are "rapists" released every year when their "victims" come out and tell the truth about having lied, sometimes years after the "rape", years that man has spent in jail being treated as rapist by other inmates and guards and everyone else they know.
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Then you get cities like Paris where you should basically just kill yourself already.

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Neonivek

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #580 on: August 03, 2014, 09:59:21 pm »

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That, is not what a rape is. Rape is when one person forces other into having sex against their will.

That isn't accurate. Putting someone, or taking advantage of someone, who is in an altered state of mind FOR sex... Also constitutes rape.

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What fantasy land do you live in? It's all you need to send man to jail, just say he did it. Sheding few tears will almost guarantee it.

I don't know... Canada.

Its pretty hard for a woman to accuse even their actual rapist of being a rapist... Yet alone one who didn't do it. (Mind you, I don't consider that a problem exactly... rape is just an inherently difficult crime to prove)

In his case... YES if there was evidence he really could have been sent to jail... But there wasn't so he is pretty safe.

Though yeah some places the laws are pretty BS when it comes to rape (On both ends of the spectrum... in the being too impossible to disprove and the too easy to prove)... For example if BDSM devices are used it was rape, even if it was consensual at the time for the entire length. (The things you learn reading up on 50 shades of grey) So I can't say other places can't have nonsense laws that basically allow people to be jailed on hearsay... but not here.

I still consider false reporting to be mostly a non-issue... at least where I am. There are a lot of unfair laws that unearned benefit women and unfairly prosecute men (Less so in Canada Yay! Sucks for you USA!) but that isn't one of them. Most of those laws mind you are just hold-overs from earlier times when women had less options and I honestly think, where I am at least, the legal system is getting to them at an appropriate pace so it is mostly a non-issue as well (or rather... its an issue... But it would be like complaining about a broken bridge while the repair crews are on the scene).

And honestly male depiction is getting a bit better as well as is female depiction. Male characters are less afraid to just punch a woman (yes its a big deal) and women are less likely to be instantly disabled because someone lightly grabbed their shoulder. Sure women tend to almost never suffer real visual injuries (my opinion is because people would see it as too much a paralelle to spousal abuse) but they will still be beaten into the ground on an action show. They are getting closer to being considered equal to male characters rather then the female character everyone needs because the male characters aren't allowed to even lightly graze the female ones.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 10:18:57 pm by Neonivek »
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Toady One

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Re: A Strange Idea about Gender Roles
« Reply #581 on: August 03, 2014, 10:43:40 pm »

This thread isn't really viable anymore.  I'd appreciate it if people would consult the forum guidelines.  I don't care what sort of nonsense you are confronted with -- if you can't be civil, the thread isn't going to make it.  On the other hand, I am mindful of people trying to shut discussions like this down, and if I become convinced that somebody is trolling as similar discussions continue throughout the forum, they'll be gone.

I'd also appreciate it if the popcorn people would refrain, forever, from making posts like that in any thread.  It further sours the atmosphere and makes moderating the forum more difficult.
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