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Author Topic: Armchair General General - /AGG  (Read 64519 times)

BlindKitty

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #390 on: October 04, 2014, 08:24:38 am »

Heh, I had a friend once that stated that if could made one decision for Hitler different that he did, he could make the outcome of the WW II very different. Interesting, he had quite a few such decisions. But then I proposed him a little game: for every Hitler's mistake corrected, I got to correct one Stalin's mistake. Interestingly, it usually led to Soviets getting even more of an advantage, at least in our estimation. So it seems Stalin fucked up even worse than Hitler, but had (pun intended) more reserves of luck to draw on from.
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Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #391 on: October 04, 2014, 11:16:07 am »

It also helped that Germans have never really improved on their tactics coined during the conquest of Poland and France, while Russians were catching up pretty quickly in military tactics and strategy.

The Stalingrad battle is notable also because an entire German's 6th army has been encircled and subsequently defeated as a direct result of it.

Taking cities in Russia is not a winning strategy. Napoleon got defeated because of that.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #392 on: October 04, 2014, 12:42:42 pm »

It also helped that Germans have never really improved on their tactics coined during the conquest of Poland and France, while Russians were catching up pretty quickly in military tactics and strategy.

The Stalingrad battle is notable also because an entire German's 6th army has been encircled and subsequently defeated as a direct result of it.
German army at Stalingrad got all problems from the fact that it flanks were guarded by Hungarians, Romanians and Italians with their inferior training and equipment
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #393 on: October 04, 2014, 03:16:53 pm »

It also helped that Germans have never really improved on their tactics coined during the conquest of Poland and France, while Russians were catching up pretty quickly in military tactics and strategy.

The Stalingrad battle is notable also because an entire German's 6th army has been encircled and subsequently defeated as a direct result of it.
German army at Stalingrad got all problems from the fact that it flanks were guarded by Hungarians, Romanians and Italians with their inferior training and equipment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad#Weakness_on_the_German_flanks

They didn't really have enough troops to cover all the territory + the German command was too focused on taking the city, and it probably forgot about the flanks.

They were used to surrounding Soviet troops. They didn't expect the Soviet troops to surround them.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #394 on: October 05, 2014, 02:51:55 am »

I think it is a great "success" for Russian diplomacy to get tanks right near his borders. No one bothered to place serious forces in Baltic States
More tanks near our border? Great, we don't have to go across half the world to destroy them!  :)

Like how Russians believe in their outdated, badly trained, badly disciplined army :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting Here is what Abrams Tanks do with Soviet crap. Same will happen again next time
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #395 on: October 05, 2014, 04:06:50 am »

Iraq troops < Russian troops.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #396 on: October 05, 2014, 04:10:12 am »

In addition, that was the M1A1 versus early soviet tanks. T-55, T-62, and just a few T-72's.

ie, the most modern Iraqi tank was still 15 years older than the  US tanks involved.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #397 on: October 05, 2014, 04:20:52 am »

Yes, Iraq troops were more disciplined, better trained, and had a lot of experience from the war with Iran

Modern Russian troops are worse

In addition, that was the M1A1 versus early soviet tanks. T-55, T-62, and just a few T-72's.

ie, the most modern Iraqi tank was still 15 years older than the  US tanks involved.

It will be same now. Modernized Abrams against less modernized T-72 (Some of them are called T-90) and not modernized reserve T-72s\T-80s  that are as good as T-55s in 1991
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #398 on: October 05, 2014, 04:27:29 am »

Dude, just recently 30 000 Iraqi troops with Abrams tanks and all that US shit were routed by 800 ISIS fighters armed with AK-s.

Iraqi troops are always worse than Russian ones. They also used the "export versions" of Russian tanks, which were intentionally downgraded.

For one, they didn't have the advanced fire control systems, which modern Russians tanks have.

Also, who said tanks will be fighting tanks? The Abrams are going to mostly fight infantry armed with anti-tank weapons (modern anti-tank weapons are quite capable of piercing the side of the Abrams FYI). With the desert style camo the Abrams tanks are going to be spotted from very far.
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Strife26

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #399 on: October 05, 2014, 04:32:50 am »

Dude, just recently 30 000 Iraqi troops with Abrams tanks and all that US shit were routed by 800 ISIS fighters armed with AK-s.

Iraqi troops are always worse than Russian ones. They also used the "export versions" of Russian tanks, which were intentionally downgraded.

For one, they didn't have the advanced fire control systems, which modern Russians tanks have.

Also, who said tanks will be fighting tanks? The Abrams are going to mostly fight infantry armed with anti-tank weapons (modern anti-tank weapons are quite capable of piercing the side of the Abrams FYI). With the desert style camo the Abrams tanks are going to be spotted from very far.


 . . . What?


No. Just no.

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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #400 on: October 05, 2014, 04:36:23 am »

In addition, that was the M1A1 versus early soviet tanks. T-55, T-62, and just a few T-72's.

ie, the most modern Iraqi tank was still 15 years older than the  US tanks involved.
The Soviet tanks in Iraqi arsenal were downgraded, inferior export versions - they wouldn't even win against their counterparts from the USSR.

EDIT:
The Abrams are going to mostly fight infantry armed with anti-tank weapons (modern anti-tank weapons are quite capable of piercing the side of the Abrams FYI). With the desert style camo the Abrams tanks are going to be spotted from very far.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 04:42:33 am by Guardian G.I. »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #401 on: October 05, 2014, 04:45:56 am »

Oh, that downgraded export version myth again....

How many not downgraded T-72 and T-80s Chechens destroyed in Grozny?

I know you'll say that Abrams would fare no better. But we both know that is untrue.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #402 on: October 05, 2014, 04:52:08 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
These tanks do not appear to have the appropriate camo.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #403 on: October 05, 2014, 04:53:39 am »

Repainting is a trivial job
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Guardian G.I.

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #404 on: October 05, 2014, 08:43:03 am »

Oh, that downgraded export version myth again....
Yes, they existed. Soviet Union never sent its top of the line military equipment to volatile Third World countries, where they could easily fall into the hands of American intelligence operatives.

How many not downgraded T-72 and T-80s Chechens destroyed in Grozny?
I've said that before and I'll say it again: Russian losses during the disastrous attempt at storming Grozny on the New Year's Eve of 1995 weren't caused by the extreme inferiority of the tanks themselves.
Maskhadov & Co. should have declared the entire Russian General Staff heroes of Ichkeria - sending tanks and APC without infantry support in a city full of militants with RPGs was a suicidal move showing the incompetence of Russian generals.
The same T-72 and T-80 tanks also participated in the Second Chechen War against the same Chechens with the same RPGs - the Russian Army didn't lose several hundred tanks and APCs like in 1995. If they were so inferior, why did the Chechens fail to destroy them as easily as in the previous war?
Also, here's another example - 8-9 August 2008, South Ossetia. South Ossetian and Russian troops defended Tskhinvali against the Georgian assault. Both Georgians and Russians had T-72 tanks, which were used during urban combat. T-72s didn't prove themselves as vulnerable as in 1995's Grozny. I wonder why...

I know you'll say that Abrams would fare no better. But we both know that is untrue.
It depends on which RPG you would use. Old RPG-7 wouldn't fare much against Abrams tanks, but the newer RPG-29 would easily penetrate its armour. Iraqi insurgents successfully used them against American and British tanks - unfortunately for them, they had very few RPG-29s. Israeli Merkava tanks were also no match against Hezbollah militants with RPG-29s in Lebanon.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
These tanks do not appear to have the appropriate camo.
These are Bradley APCs, not tanks, and just like UR said, it isn't too hard to repaint them.
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this means that a donation of 30 dollars to a developer that did not deliver would equal 4.769*10^-14 hitlers stolen from you
that's like half a femtohitler
and that is terrible
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