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Author Topic: Armchair General General - /AGG  (Read 127058 times)

TheDarkStar

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1170 on: May 29, 2017, 09:41:57 pm »

Yeah the ability of a guerilla force to wage effective war against the US military drops catastrophically if "Hearts and minds" and "noncombatants"  are removed from play. If the entire civilian population are taking up arms, there is no background of "people the army cannot shoot at/bomb" to melt back into.

That results in the United States ceasing to be a modern, industrialized nation. The often imagined, poorly conceived, American uprising isn't one that gets won, but it's one that doesn't get won by anyone. Once the fires die down, there ain't a nation left, which isn't an unreasonable accomplishment when faced with tyranny or evil.

Yeah but this is a fantasy universe where every single citizen of the USA jumps up, pulls an AR-15 out of their backside, and declares a revolution simultaneously. The serious sociopolitical effects are clearly not being considered here

Yeah, it's basically a zombie plague type scenario, except all the zombies have AK-47s and somehow the military is immune.
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smjjames

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1171 on: May 29, 2017, 09:42:06 pm »

Besides, in even the bloodiest revolutions and civil wars, most of the population aren't even fighting. Either the Civil War or the Revolutionary war had only like 10% (with that number, it'd be the Civil War) on either side actually fighting, with some percentage in a support role, and the rest cheering (or not) from the sidelines.
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Bumber

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1172 on: May 29, 2017, 10:24:53 pm »

US aircraft and weapons are designed and built by civilian contractors.

Drones, aircraft, bombs, missile defense, chemicals. The only thing stopping them from being assembled and distributed is the law.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 10:35:58 pm by Bumber »
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Strife26

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1173 on: May 29, 2017, 10:56:15 pm »

US aircraft and weapons are designed and built by civilian contractors.

Drones, aircraft, bombs, missile defense, chemicals. The only thing stopping them from being assembled and distributed is the law.

Yep, because the military industrial complex is somehow less or more American than the American military or the American populace.
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Bumber

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1174 on: May 30, 2017, 12:05:44 am »

US aircraft and weapons are designed and built by civilian contractors.

Drones, aircraft, bombs, missile defense, chemicals. The only thing stopping them from being assembled and distributed is the law.

Yep, because the military industrial complex is somehow less or more American than the American military or the American populace.
The hypothetical scenario, as I understand it, is military versus civilians. Contractors are private sector, civilians, not under military oath. They'll be wanting civilian-produced goods.

The executives will probably also want to flee the country with their money.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 12:39:26 am by Bumber »
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Kot

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1175 on: May 30, 2017, 01:14:22 am »

If the army was there, fighting literally the rest of the US, would they engage in bloody street-to-street firefights? Nope. The easiest thing to do would just be level the damn place. The ENTIRE populace is hostile, so long as you don't send anyone in, everything there is a target. So you can just drop an MOAB in the middle of San Francisco without even the slightest fuck given. Sure, after the war you have to repair it all, but both sides in this hypothetical scenario are basically pulling a "No surrender!" thing.
America is a big place, and you can't MOAB every goddamn town in the whole US. The size is too much, the amount of people is too much. Only thing I could see is use of biological weaponry, and not even that really, there is too much empty space to hide in, and gas masks and other NBC equipment can be purchased without permit, and is a part of regular >surviving nuclear war prepper pack.

And what is there to stop something like that happening? Fuck. All. How many AA guns and SAM missiles are in civilian use? How many F-22s?
After they raid their closest supply depot, guarded by weekend soldiers, they gain access to heavy equipment.

Not only would the whole US populace be fighting a well armed foe, they'd be fighting a well armed foe with total air superiority.
Air bases can be captured too, and planes can be destroyed on ground. Sure, army got tanks, but simplest molotovs are deadly to superfluous turbine engine of Abrams, people would get their hands on IEDs, soon there would be self-made weaponry, which, with the technological and resource base, would be much more effective than the already very effective scrap weapons of middle east guerillas, and as I said, people would soon get into depots to get the weapons in store there.
Soon, US armed forces would be reduced to Navy, which is honestly only thing that can't be killed easily enough by infantry, but all that navy also need supplies. Sure, the nuclear carriers and submarines can just float around for years, but ultimately people on there need food and water, and it depends if some other country is willing to supply them.

In any case, US armed forces would be kicked out of their own country, and the civilians would soon form their own armed forces with heavy equipment and whatnot.
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Playergamer

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1176 on: May 30, 2017, 12:25:54 pm »

"Total air superiority" for how long? How long would that last when nobody's making spare parts or jet fuel?

As MSH eloquently put it, the point of the Second Amendment is simply lowering the percent of the populace that needs to rise up to un-nation a dictatorship.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1177 on: May 30, 2017, 01:57:18 pm »

Why would the military even fight if every citizen just took up arms? I mean, they're not going to fight their parents, their siblings, let alone kill them. Realistic or Fantastical, an "American Uprising" is just impossible. Also you're certainly not going to MOAB anything, destroying your own infrastructure is a quick way to get invaded mid-war or after the war is over.
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Amperzand

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1178 on: May 30, 2017, 04:24:17 pm »

Another factor is that most of the nuclear arsenal is a bunch of widely-spaced and lightly-manned bunkers in flyover country. How long would it be before the first Minuteman silo got captured, even assuming a magical "NO SURRENDER" situation?
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martinuzz

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1179 on: May 30, 2017, 06:38:48 pm »

I'd wager that those lightly manned bunkers are heavily armoured, as to a point where using explosives to break them open would risk contaminating the site with radioactive material, and destroy the nukes you were after in the process, and stocked with supplies to last the guard team for more than just a few days.
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Playergamer

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1180 on: May 30, 2017, 06:44:01 pm »

Not necessarily.

Also, important to note that this drill was a simulation of a terrorist group raiding a silo to steal a warhead in peacetime. Not a security team resisting a much larger force without reinforcements.
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Strife26

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1181 on: May 30, 2017, 07:41:54 pm »

Not necessarily.

Also, important to note that this drill was a simulation of a terrorist group raiding a silo to steal a warhead in peacetime. Not a security team resisting a much larger force without reinforcements.

Only tangentially related and on-topic, but too good not to mention again.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/us/pacifists-who-broke-into-nuclear-weapon-facility-due-in-court.html?_r=1&ref=atomicweapons
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smjjames

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1182 on: May 30, 2017, 07:48:53 pm »

Not necessarily.

Also, important to note that this drill was a simulation of a terrorist group raiding a silo to steal a warhead in peacetime. Not a security team resisting a much larger force without reinforcements.

Only tangentially related and on-topic, but too good not to mention again.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/us/pacifists-who-broke-into-nuclear-weapon-facility-due-in-court.html?_r=1&ref=atomicweapons


Ha, I remember that. It was a bunch of people who's only intention was to make a point about the security lapses and problems.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1183 on: August 15, 2017, 02:41:39 am »

Looking at Russian steam trains and her nuclear train platforms got me thinking at how a post-WWIII map of "great powers" would look like. Aussie world power? Russian steam train lines of communication in a dead world? Chinese underground cities? Swissroaches emerging from their mountain hobbit-holes to dominate the world? Icelandic sagas 2: Nuclear viking boogaloo? How many nuclear weapons would be held in reserve, how much of previous government would survive their nation's explosion to rebuild or relaunch a post-hot war nuclear negotiations/2nd strike? If destruction occurred with today's reduced nuclear arsenals, would the surviving warlords seek to finish the job and complete nuclear destruction of their foes? Would mankind be able to repair global communications?

Kot

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #1184 on: August 15, 2017, 06:50:26 am »

Looking at Russian steam trains and her nuclear train platforms got me thinking at how a post-WWIII map of "great powers" would look like. Aussie world power? Russian steam train lines of communication in a dead world? Chinese underground cities? Swissroaches emerging from their mountain hobbit-holes to dominate the world? Icelandic sagas 2: Nuclear viking boogaloo? How many nuclear weapons would be held in reserve, how much of previous government would survive their nation's explosion to rebuild or relaunch a post-hot war nuclear negotiations/2nd strike? If destruction occurred with today's reduced nuclear arsenals, would the surviving warlords seek to finish the job and complete nuclear destruction of their foes? Would mankind be able to repair global communications?
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