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Author Topic: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.  (Read 116686 times)

NullForceOmega

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #1995 on: February 16, 2018, 10:32:01 pm »

Proper sentence structure and formal grammar is the best you will get from me when it comes to de-escalation LW.  My non-formal speech patterns rely heavily on the use of expletives, which Toady has indicated to me is not something he wants on his forum, and I find most forms of informal speech incredibly grating.  For instance, when you use the terms, 'mate', 'fam', 'haram', or other informalities/slang usages I am consumed with the desire to do violence onto others (and if you really need me to I will explain why, in detail, but to simplify it has nothing to do with you).  Since that is not how I wish to deal with people I default to less confrontational formal usages.  *It has already taken me five re-writes just to filter out my unconscious uses of above mentioned expletives.

I am perfectly willing to try to discuss things in a reasonable matter, but once I have reached the limits of my capacity to debate civilly I prefer to bow out instead of risking making stupid rage posts.  Since that is the point I have come to in this discussion I made the decision to make an apology for my behavior and disengage.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 10:35:56 pm by NullForceOmega »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #1996 on: February 17, 2018, 11:57:04 am »

I respect your wishes; no more fam from me, I don't intend to cause any stress. Hope you have a good day

martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #1997 on: February 17, 2018, 03:37:00 pm »

Please take that discussion to PMs or somesuch.

Meanwhile in Syria, Syrian-Kurdish forces, and the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights are accusing Turkey of using poison gas in their assault on Afrin.
They are basing their claims on local medical sources.

Turkey denies, and says it takes the greatest care to avoid civilian casualties in their operation 'Olive Branch'.

EDIT: in other news, the commander of the SDF urges nations from which people have travelled to Syria to fight for IS, to takle back their citizens and put them to trial in their countries of origin.
According to the commander, the SDF is holding thousands of IS fighters, of whom many do not originate from Syria, and they don't have the means to keep holding them indefinitly.

"Here's an example", the commander says. "We have two British nationals here, Shafee and Alexanda. WHen they were with IS, they were tasked with torturing western prisoners. They commited war crimes, and should be judged by the International Criminal Court in the Hague.
But what happened instead? The UK took away their British nationality. Now I have two people here who are stateless. What am I supposed to do with them? The UK hasn't even tried to contact us about it?"

"Sadly we have no ocean here, or we would put them in rubber boats to Europe"

Then there's the Netherlands. We will take back fighters from Syria, but only if they can manage on their own to get to the Dutch consulate in Ankara, Turkey. Which is... near impossible, and won't work for the prisoners of war.

If this continues, SDF might be forced to release the IS fighters, or say fuck Geneva and massacre them all.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 03:56:48 pm by martinuzz »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #1998 on: February 17, 2018, 04:33:50 pm »

EDIT: in other news, the commander of the SDF urges nations from which people have travelled to Syria to fight for IS, to takle back their citizens and put them to trial in their countries of origin.
According to the commander, the SDF is holding thousands of IS fighters, of whom many do not originate from Syria, and they don't have the means to keep holding them indefinitly.

"Here's an example", the commander says. "We have two British nationals here, Shafee and Alexanda. WHen they were with IS, they were tasked with torturing western prisoners. They commited war crimes, and should be judged by the International Criminal Court in the Hague.
But what happened instead? The UK took away their British nationality. Now I have two people here who are stateless. What am I supposed to do with them? The UK hasn't even tried to contact us about it?"

"Sadly we have no ocean here, or we would put them in rubber boats to Europe"
Is the SDF seriously threatening Europe? Not very clever is it, when the US has dropped support, to then threaten the last of your allies when Turkey is attacking.

If this continues, SDF might be forced to release the IS fighters, or say fuck Geneva and massacre them all.
IS Jihadis do not follow the Geneva convention, are not protected by it, are not soldiers, and I'm not exactly going to see crowds of people crying over the death of fighters who have committed themselves to the destruction of their home - fighters we are actively attacking. Another important clarification, which is why you really ought to post your sources so they can be scrutinized, is that the UK cannot just revoke someone's nationality and leave them stateless, thus that commander is either mistaken or lying. The UK can only revoke the nationality of a citizen with dual citizenship, it cannot revoke the citizenship of a solely British citizen. The UK may eventually have the power to do so, but is currently incapable of doing so. The two fighters he claims to have cannot be stateless, unless the states they belong to have subsequently revoked their citizenship, or he has been deceived. The absolute worst case scenario is simply following the EU model and allowing all of our jihadis to return home, incapable of being prosecuted for aforementioned war crimes because evidence is lacking, and having them set up their own squads, recruitment and procurement drives from the comfort of their homes, with state benefits. Even prison is no obstacle to recruitment :/

martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #1999 on: February 17, 2018, 05:30:53 pm »


"Sadly we have no ocean here, or we would put them in rubber boats to Europe"
Is the SDF seriously threatening Europe? Not very clever is it, when the US has dropped support, to then threaten the last of your allies when Turkey is attacking.
I strongly suspect the commander was being sarcastic there.
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Sheb

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2000 on: February 18, 2018, 03:36:06 am »

Quote
Another important clarification, which is why you really ought to post your sources so they can be scrutinized, is that the UK cannot just revoke someone's nationality and leave them stateless, thus that commander is either mistaken or lying. The UK can only revoke the nationality of a citizen with dual citizenship, it cannot revoke the citizenship of a solely British citizen. The UK may eventually have the power to do so, but is currently incapable of doing so. The two fighters he claims to have cannot be stateless, unless the states they belong to have subsequently revoked their citizenship, or he has been deceived. The absolute worst case scenario is simply following the EU model and allowing all of our jihadis to return home, incapable of being prosecuted for aforementioned war crimes because evidence is lacking, and having them set up their own squads, recruitment and procurement drives from the comfort of their homes, with state benefits. Even prison is no obstacle to recruitment

Yeah, I'm not exactly going to cry for them, but generally I'm wary of giving the state the right to strip someone of his rights witout proper judicial review. Sure, the ISIS dude and dudette deserve it, but you know that they're eventually going to want to use the powers granted in such case for other stuff. And then of course you have the more general issue that you can't just dump your crap on the SDF and force them to deal with it. I sure wouldn't be happy if a country had revoked the citizenship of a jihadi that had travelled to Belgium to prevent us from deporting him.
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redwallzyl

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2001 on: February 18, 2018, 10:43:35 am »

As much as ISIS is bad giving a county the ability to remove citizenship at will like that for people leaving them stateless is a terribly dangerous precedent to set.
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smjjames

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2002 on: February 18, 2018, 10:47:41 am »


"Sadly we have no ocean here, or we would put them in rubber boats to Europe"
Is the SDF seriously threatening Europe? Not very clever is it, when the US has dropped support, to then threaten the last of your allies when Turkey is attacking.
I strongly suspect the commander was being sarcastic there.

Does sound pretty tongue-in-cheek, and apparent reference to the migrants trying to cross the Mediterranean in rubber boats.
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martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2003 on: February 18, 2018, 06:38:40 pm »

Assad has decided to send the Syrian army to Afrin, to help the Kurds defend themselves against Turkish attacks. They should arrive within two days, and will take positions overseeing the Syrian-Turkish border. Assad considers the Turkish operation as a violation of the territorial integrity of Syria.
Even though he has been very clear that he will not allow the Kurds to secede from Syria and form their own state, the Turks are a worse enemy.

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Strife26

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2004 on: February 19, 2018, 12:04:38 am »

Assad has decided to send the Syrian army to Afrin, to help the Kurds defend themselves against Turkish attacks. They should arrive within two days, and will take positions overseeing the Syrian-Turkish border. Assad considers the Turkish operation as a violation of the territorial integrity of Syria.
Even though he has been very clear that he will not allow the Kurds to secede from Syria and form their own state, the Turks are a worse enemy.

The Middle East: Strange Bedfellows: the Region
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Sheb

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2005 on: February 19, 2018, 02:04:35 am »

So now we will have US troops fighting alongside Assad against a NATO member? :p
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miljan

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2006 on: February 19, 2018, 05:05:52 am »

Well, thanks to Turkey Afrin will be back under SAA control. I think now that Kurds will be disarmed in the coming days, Turkey will stop the progression soon and declare victory as the kurdish militia will be disarmed. I really wonder was this planed out and agreed upon, and the reason why russia and syria didn't put that much fuss about turkey invasion, so they can push kurds to an agreement and disarmament.

Will see how this turns out.

EDIT
It looks like this news are not confirmed yet, as there is no official response form both SAA and Kurds
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 05:40:37 am by miljan »
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Strife26

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2007 on: February 19, 2018, 03:20:59 pm »

So now we will have US troops fighting alongside Assad against a NATO member? :p

Yep, this will of course trigger a loyalty cascade as everyone in NATO is required to take appropriate actions against the United States to defend Turkey, against Turkey to defend the United States, against everyone else in NATO for their actions against NATO, and finally against themselves for all of the above.

Somehow, once everything is settled, Poland gets partitioned between Brazil and Iceland.
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miljan

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2008 on: February 20, 2018, 05:09:39 pm »

So, it was all misinformation. There is no SAA moving to Afrin. There are volunteers from pro government militia that fought with hezbollah and SAA that are now joining Kurds in Afrin to fight against Turkey.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #2009 on: February 25, 2018, 08:18:55 pm »

Yeah, I'm not exactly going to cry for them, but generally I'm wary of giving the state the right to strip someone of his rights witout proper judicial review. Sure, the ISIS dude and dudette deserve it, but you know that they're eventually going to want to use the powers granted in such case for other stuff. And then of course you have the more general issue that you can't just dump your crap on the SDF and force them to deal with it. I sure wouldn't be happy if a country had revoked the citizenship of a jihadi that had travelled to Belgium to prevent us from deporting him.
I'm more wary of enemy combatants enjoying your legal protection while they kill you tbh. This isn't a punitive judicial measure, nor a political decision made to spite the SDF and force them to deal with the fighters we've tried to bomb to death. It was a measure designed to stop jihadis using British passports to set up their networks throughout Europe, because the EU still doesn't know how to run border security and is very willing to allow jihadis to take a train into Belgium because they have the right passport rights. Given that they haven't stopped fighting, training or stockpiling weapons, nor have they given up their goal to destroy their host nation, you can understand why I am more confused by the reaction that the UK has done anything wrong in limiting the ability of Syrian mercenaries to travel through the Schengen area legally. I would much rather have it be that they were all captured by British forces, but as that is not impossible without an invasion of Syria, you can also perhaps understand why I'm nettled at the notion the UK isn't dealing with the cards it's been dealt D:
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