Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 136

Author Topic: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.  (Read 196601 times)

LordSlowpoke

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

i assume the phrase "you broke it, you pay for it" does not ring any bells in the land of the free
Logged

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

i assume the phrase "you broke it, you pay for it" does not ring any bells in the land of the free

It does actually, but the Iraqis have to choose their own path, we can't choose it for them.
Logged

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile

Already paid out huge amounts -- cash, time, lives, effort. Hasn't particularly worked. Y'all fix it, maybe send us a bill.

Though now I totally have this image of europe or whatever being this poor sad store employee looking at the mess some asshole made and just... standing there, then shrugging and walking off, assuming the asshole is going to come back in and clean the mess.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

Already paid out huge amounts -- cash, time, lives, effort. Hasn't particularly worked. Y'all fix it, maybe send us a bill.

Though now I totally have this image of europe or whatever being this poor sad store employee looking at the mess some asshole made and just... standing there, then shrugging and walking off, assuming the asshole is going to come back in and clean the mess.

The last time we tried to fix it didn't work out so well.
Logged

Zangi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

I think that this is a fairly good article for the US perspective.
http://www.havokjournal.com/military/back-to-iraq-put-me-back-in-coach
@LordSlowPoke
This article sums it up well.  Altruism and care for other humans ain't gonna motivate the US to go 'Hoorah!'... It is either going to have to be revenge, pragmatism or both that motivates us to put boots back on the ground.  And we will probably install an El Presidente for life rather then leave it to democracy if we do any semblance of propping things up.  (Don't worry, the bastard is going to fuck up too.  Iran 2.0)
Logged
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...  This is the truth! This is my belief! ... At least for now...
FMA/FMA:B Recommendation

Ai Shizuka

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

US foreign policy would be almost hilarious, if it wasn't the main cause of the current middle-east trainwreck.
These ISIS guys didn't suddenly pop out of thin air. They've been a thing since the mid 2000s and considerably grew in strenght during the Syrian civil war.
The civil war that caused something between 110,000 and 250,000 dead and went largely ignored by the US. Because apparently civilian deaths by bombs or bullets are cool, but deaths by chemical weapons are totally unacceptable.

Now someone realized the ISIS guys are at Baghdad's doorstep (breaking news: they'be been for a few months already) and Iraq's current miserable state is going to be even more apparent for the entire world to see.
What was one of the US' main goals in Iraq again? Right, to train a proper army to defend themselves. It's been what? Ten years? Not enough time to prepare them?
Solution: let's deploy a few drones and drop some supply crates on the mountains. You know, to show how much we care about the mess we contributed to create in the first place.
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile

And if the brits can bugger off across the water and leave it to burn, so can we :)
The UK is currently helping in the relief efforts and is likely to start combat operations against IS soon.

Already paid out huge amounts -- cash, time, lives, effort. Hasn't particularly worked. Y'all fix it, maybe send us a bill.
Quite frankly the costs that the US has paid are a tiny fraction of the costs it has inflicted upon the Iraqi people with its staggeringly short-sighted invasion.  It can damn well stay until the problem is fixed.
Logged

Zangi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

Already paid out huge amounts -- cash, time, lives, effort. Hasn't particularly worked. Y'all fix it, maybe send us a bill.
Quite frankly the costs that the US has paid are a tiny fraction of the costs it has inflicted upon the Iraqi people with its staggeringly short-sighted invasion.  It can damn well stay until the problem is fixed.
Meh... your reasoning is not convincing.  That is not going to get the US off its arse.
Logged
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...  This is the truth! This is my belief! ... At least for now...
FMA/FMA:B Recommendation

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile

Your reasoning is non-existent so I don't know how to respond to that.
Logged

burningpet

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

Senior employee of the Dutch Justice Ministry said the jihadist group ISIS was created by Zionists seeking to give Islam a bad reputation.
(first English source I could find)

Welp.

The thing that surprise me most is how an islamic nutcase like her can keep her job after propagating this anti-semitic nonsense.

Well you did remove Saddam, who was more or less keeping things under control.

No, he wasn't keeping things under control. even if the US had never intervened in Iraq, the "Arab spring" would have caught it anyway and it would have resulted with something similar to what we see in syria, libya and somalia.

And that even without taking into consideration that his apparent "taking things under control" is actually simply mass murdering his own people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/22/iraq.ianblack
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile

The thing that surprise me most is how an islamic nutcase like her can keep her job after propagating this anti-semitic nonsense.
She didn't.
Logged

LordSlowpoke

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

Senior employee of the Dutch Justice Ministry said the jihadist group ISIS was created by Zionists seeking to give Islam a bad reputation.
(first English source I could find)

Welp.

The thing that surprise me most is how an islamic nutcase like her can keep her job after propagating this anti-semitic nonsense.

Well you did remove Saddam, who was more or less keeping things under control.

No, he wasn't keeping things under control. even if the US had never intervened in Iraq, the "Arab spring" would have caught it anyway and it would have resulted with something similar to what we see in syria, libya and somalia.

And that even without taking into consideration that his apparent "taking things under control" is actually simply mass murdering his own people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/22/iraq.ianblack

i kinda forgot to ask back when the middle east thread was still a thing

what do you think should be done with all the little middle eastern regimes?

what would be the best course of action for them to take?
Logged

Heron TSG

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Seal Goddess
    • View Profile

Quite frankly the costs that the US has paid are a tiny fraction of the costs it has inflicted upon the Iraqi people with its staggeringly short-sighted invasion.  It can damn well stay until the problem is fixed.

I find it frustrating that most discussions of US foreign policy eventually come down to people complaining that we interfere too much in foreign politics and simultaneously complaining that we should really do more in foreign politics. Let's talk about Iraq for a moment. Here's my entire experience with the Iraq war, as pertaining to me specifically.

Shortly after starting second grade, the World Trade Center was attacked and my school was closed for a few days. I heard a bit about the invasion of Afghanistan but I didn't really understand it. I was quite aware why the invasion happened though, since I remembered the tragedy that happened in New York. (Hearing that 3,000 people died was pretty devastating to a kid that just experienced the first death of a close family member; my grandmother died a week prior.)

Two years later, America invaded Iraq. This one I wasn't quite sure about, but I figured it was an extension of the other war. I was 8 years old or so, and I didn't know what a WMD was. I occasionally watched coverage of the invasion with my dad. I remember watching a broadcast of the dark sky over Baghdad, my dad told me the army was bombing it. He mentioned that there were a lot of anti-aircraft defenses, and that's what some of the bright flashes were on our TV.

Fast forward eight-ish years, over the course of which our economy's taken a bit of a tumble and we've spent an insane amount of money on the war. I wasn't old enough to vote in 2008, but if I could I would have supported Obama in no small part because I wanted our wars to end. Several people I knew were sent overseas, as well as the relatives of some of my friends. By this point I've run audio equipment and set up for two separate funerals for citizens of my tiny town at the church across the street from my house, including one for the son of my mom's co-worker.

And then, hooray, we're finally pulling out of Iraq. Just about every other country had withdrawn from Iraq, and the country was in a reasonably stable state. We fucked up a bit, but we tried pretty hard to get everything working again. Iraq had a reasonably functional military of its own. I don't have to run any more funerals, we're not spending absurd amounts of money on that war, and my friend's dad gets to come home.

Now that ISIS is going crazy over there, the same international community that left Iraq, and encouraged us to leave (I remember reading Newsweek articles about this!) is asking us to go back. I can't say I have any desire for the US to send troops there again. One of my high school friends is stationed on a ship in the eastern Mediterranean, and I hope that's as close as he ever goes.

Yes, the US fucked up a bit in Iraq. But it's a pretty tall order to just demand some other country send its people off to war just because we've done it before. I don't think that's very fair. I don't know where you're from, but how would you like it if people from another country were asking your friends, your extended family, and your local electronics store owner to go to war in Iraq? That's a pretty absurd thing to say.
Logged

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
The Artist Formerly Known as Barbarossa TSG

MonkeyHead

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yma o hyd...
    • View Profile

I can see where you are coming from a little Barbarossa, but also have slightly different thoughts on the matter. The invasion of Afghanistan was a punitive action against the Taliban/Al-Qaeda power base as a result of 9/11. It was easy to see how it could be a just war, conducted for the greater good. The invasion of Iraq however had an almost... vanity war (?? if that is the right term) feel about it which only got worse when the apparent justification for the war was shown to be bullshit and public support went through the floor - there was no real immediate need to invade and enforce the quasi-civil war and ensuing regime change that occurred. The general populace in the West now speaking up for intervention against ISIS is more like support for the invasion or Afghanistan (as in a military action against a rouge body) for the benefit of "normal people" rather than the desire to  invade a sovereign nation state in order to achieve some kind of political change sold as some kind of "WMD panic".
Logged
This is a blank sig.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 136