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[forsaken1111]

My attitude on this would be very different if the project had just gone dark, but I cannot believe someone would be so hilariously bad at fraud that they are still perpetuating the fraud years after they have everyone's money by continuing to produce and release videos. Slowly, yes, but still at it. A scammer would have long since departed.

If this makes me a shill, I guess I'm shilling.

[Cruxador]

So, even though you keep going after people who post negatively about this project, and calling it a scam, you're not defending it.

You're constructing a false "us vs them" scenario here. Saying that someone has made a factually incorrect statement doesn't imply any particular position on what the false statement was referring to. Someone can disagree about it being a scam (and really, if you consider how monumentally ineffectual of a scam it would be, occam's razor cuts that notion to shreds) while still not thinking that Josh is comporting himself properly.

why do you keep trying to chase me out of the thread?

While I kind of agree with your perspective that it's fine if conversation drifts within a thread, that's not really the dominant zeitgeist of the Bay12Forums. Suggesting that a different topic ought to be in a more appropriate thread is within the norm here, and not necessarily a matter of confrontation.

Stop trying to normalize fraud.

I think this self-righteousness might be misplaced. Eating a loss when things don't work out isn't something to normalize, it's already normal.

The only way this being intentional fraud makes sense is if the guy is actually insane

I suspect he actually is dealing with mental health issues, and doing so somewhat poorly. The very inconsistent responses and output seem consistent with that, though he doesn't share enough information with us to say any more than that.

[forsaken1111]

why do you keep trying to chase me out of the thread?

While I kind of agree with your perspective that it's fine if conversation drifts within a thread, that's not really the dominant zeitgeist of the Bay12Forums. Suggesting that a different topic ought to be in a more appropriate thread is within the norm here, and not necessarily a matter of confrontation.

Yeah to provide clarity here, I was not telling you (Damiac) to stop posting here just suggesting that you might find more discussion in a thread matching what seemed to be your overall tone. While the original poster of this thread hasn't given guidelines as to what can and cannot be discussed here, the topic is fairly clearly on this specific game and the forum's general guidelines request that we stay within topic in threads when possible. I wasn't intending that statement to imply that the discussion wasn't worth happening, just didn't want to clutter up this thread with discussions of general kickstarter bad-ness (or croundfunding bad-ness in general). If it seemed like I was trying to get you to go away, that was not my intention and I apologize.

[Egan_BW]

The only way this being intentional fraud makes sense is if the guy is actually insane

I suspect he actually is dealing with mental health issues, and doing so somewhat poorly. The very inconsistent responses and output seem consistent with that, though he doesn't share enough information with us to say any more than that.

Well, he certainly seems stressed.

[forsaken1111]

I think I would be stressed out too if I'd gotten myself into this situation.

[Gornova]

Well, I'm so mad to try to build something related to TWS, maybe you guys can give me advice on where to start from here

Note: no scam, no kickstarter, I just want to find a way to model something related to TWS, because I found it really interesting

[Retropunch]

The court route will never, ever work.

Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.

Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.

The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all -  of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.

You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.

yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm not sure if that's because you don't understand how the american legal system works, or what.

1. in the us, an attorney would take a case like this on contingency, expecting to get 30-40% of whatever is recovered (which, in plenty of consumer fraud cases, means that fee going to be added to the award). the plaintiff/class members/backers would pay nothing in any circumstance.

2. again, it doesn't matter really matter what they release now. the question is whether there was anything to release in SEPTEMBER 2014. sure, they could end it all by releasing a full game. but if it were significantly short of what was already represented to exist, it's not going to help them at all.

3. i'm a US lawyer, i'm pretty sure you're not, so pick which one of us is better placed to make judgments about whether a case would succeed in court or not.

1. An attorney will take it if you actually have a chance of winning. Which you don't. Even if you did, you'd be hard pressed to find one which would take such a low level case in terms of potential damages. You're talking about a $30 pledge - that's less than an hourly salary for most lawyers - what possible damages have you suffered other than that loss? Sure, you could go class action, but I'd strongly doubt you'd get enough interested parties for a class action - however if you can justify that time/cost wise in terms of setting that all up then you're obviously on hard times as a lawyer.

2. I could knock together something that fulfilled all of the pledges (in word only) in a weekend and I'm a rubbish coder. Sure, it'd be the worst game ever, but it would live up to all the promises made. That's why a case wouldn't work.
 
3. I'm actually a previous US attorney general.

[forsaken1111]

We have more lawyers here than I would have guessed.

[Frumple]

I mean... for what it's worth, you don't necessarily have to be a lawyer to be a former US attorney general. The quals for the position aren't exactly strict, last I checked (i.e. two minutes ago, lazily).

Think technically "a US lawyer" doesn't necessitate board certified or whatever it is, either. Assuming one or both aren't just pulling things from probably uncomfortable orifices.

[ZeroGravitas]

The court route will never, ever work.

Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.

Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.

The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all -  of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.

You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.

yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm not sure if that's because you don't understand how the american legal system works, or what.

1. in the us, an attorney would take a case like this on contingency, expecting to get 30-40% of whatever is recovered (which, in plenty of consumer fraud cases, means that fee going to be added to the award). the plaintiff/class members/backers would pay nothing in any circumstance.

2. again, it doesn't matter really matter what they release now. the question is whether there was anything to release in SEPTEMBER 2014. sure, they could end it all by releasing a full game. but if it were significantly short of what was already represented to exist, it's not going to help them at all.

3. i'm a US lawyer, i'm pretty sure you're not, so pick which one of us is better placed to make judgments about whether a case would succeed in court or not.

1. An attorney will take it if you actually have a chance of winning. Which you don't. Even if you did, you'd be hard pressed to find one which would take such a low level case in terms of potential damages. You're talking about a $30 pledge - that's less than an hourly salary for most lawyers - what possible damages have you suffered other than that loss? Sure, you could go class action, but I'd strongly doubt you'd get enough interested parties for a class action - however if you can justify that time/cost wise in terms of setting that all up then you're obviously on hard times as a lawyer.

2. I could knock together something that fulfilled all of the pledges (in word only) in a weekend and I'm a rubbish coder. Sure, it'd be the worst game ever, but it would live up to all the promises made. That's why a case wouldn't work.
 
3. I'm actually a previous US attorney general.

as i suspected, you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about

1. you don't need "enough interested parties" for a class action. the person who walked in your door and told you what happened is enough to file. (arguably there could be two subclasses - people who backed on ks and people who pre-ordered on steam, but that's really besides the point.) there are almost 4700 kickstarter backers plus however many people prepurchased on steam. of course you have enough for a class; you can certify a class with as few as 40 members. it's enough to allege the scope of the class, get their exact identities and contact information in discovery (probably third party subpoenas to ks and steam) and then give them the option to opt out. they don't need to opt in.

but let's be real. 80% chance nobody responds to the complaint and you get a default judgment.

2. again, no. whatever crap he releases now, there's still the claim that the pledges were acquired through fraud - especially if the released product doesn't match the campaign descriptions.

3. wow, and a coder. amazing.

[ZeroGravitas]

We have more lawyers here than I would have guessed.

eric holder has had a lot of free time since 2015

(retropunch is just being facetious)

[ThtblovesDF]

"I have a working game"

"Gameplay video.youtube"

"Gameplay video.2.youtube"

"Like 60 Screenshots from working game"

A few years later

"I littarly don't have anything lol and I won't answer anything from anyone, including my busness partner"

[ChairmanPoo]

If, as some people seem to want, these promises don't have to be kept, then why the hell should anyone give anything to any crowdfunded project?  It's not as if the people who funded the project get some percentage of the returns.  Basically, that position amounts to the idea that an entrepreneur should be able to have no risk, but the potential for great reward.

QFT

[forsaken1111]

"I have a working game"

"Gameplay video.youtube"

"Gameplay video.2.youtube"

"Like 60 Screenshots from working game"

A few years later

"I littarly don't have anything lol and I won't answer anything from anyone, including my busness partner"

Refusing to answer questions is not proof of fraud, nor is being slow with game development. If anything it is indicative of some kind of mental disorder, but crazy people can be game devs too I mean look at Derek Smart.

If, as some people seem to want, these promises don't have to be kept, then why the hell should anyone give anything to any crowdfunded project?  It's not as if the people who funded the project get some percentage of the returns.  Basically, that position amounts to the idea that an entrepreneur should be able to have no risk, but the potential for great reward.

QFT

Those promises do have to be kept. I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue in any way that they don't. I'm kind of baffled at this whole attitude frankly, it's like some of you are having an argument that doesn't exist. I haven't seen a single person argue that the devs should be left alone and aren't responsible for finishing the game. Abandoning the project is against the terms of use for kickstarter and would be actionable I'd imagine. This clearly isn't abandoned, even if it isn't moving at a pace some people find acceptable.

[Damiac]

OK, last time, this is maddening....

He did say he had a working game, and went on to describe playthroughs of this working game.  In the kickstarter pitch. So people who backed were assured by him that at the very least, they would get this described un-polished, but fun sounding game.   This is a fact, you can go look at the quotes, this isn't opinion, this is what actually happened.

So he collected money, based at least partially on the basis that he already had a working prototype of a fun game.  The fact that he has never released said prototype, or anything resembling the described playthroughs, even though doing so would release him from his obligations shows that the supposed prototype never existed.

So, and try to follow this please, because he lied about a having a fun game prototype he was going to polish and make even better, he collected lots and lots of funds from people who believed his lie.  They gave him money based on his false statements.  This is the very definition of fraud.

Luckily, people in this thread aren't in charge of legislation, and in fact kickstarter project founders have been successfully sued for failing to deliver on their promises. 

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/
http://valleywag.gawker.com/it-just-got-easier-to-sue-failed-kickstarter-campaigns-1637720027
https://gamerant.com/kickstarter-class-action-lawsuit/

And this doesn't mean I think Chris is a bad person, I'm sure he had the best of intentions, but that doesn't excuse lying to get more money for the project. I hope he can make up for his fraudulent behavior and succeed in the future.  I also have no ill will toward forsaken, retropunch, or anyone else here, normally I enjoy your posts, I just think you're wildly off base here, and it's quite perplexing to me, so I keep trying to restate myself to lay out what is so clear to me, stripped of judgement or emotion.   

Oh, and by the way, I am actually a former president of the US, as well as former chancellor of Germany, and current Captain of the Floating Island of Crowdfunding Law and Ethics, so...