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[malvado]

Last I used Masterwork  I liked it , been a while now since I'm pretty busy.
I like that it's  easy to use and allows to set up the game to your convenvience , although it would be good to know a little bit more about each options.

[AJC]

i for one find it very amusing.

[Splint]

i for one find it very amusing.

Agreed.

[Meph]

Might I gently guide the conversation away from "MDF stiffles other mods" vs. "MDF helps more people to get good content easily" back to the main question: What do you think about the mod ; the content itself?

And while I have to thank sayke and smake for jumping in for a rigorous defence, I'd rather have everyone just speak their mind without the need to justify his opinion later on. While I not necessarily share the opinions posted, I would still like to hear them. I am actually quite surprised by some of them, which is good.

The lack of documentation has been named several times... I might have to remind everyone that Toady One does not do one at all. The community does write the wiki. I have to mod and write documentation, because the MDF users are not as good as the vanilla users when it comes to updating wikis. Partly because I update more frequently I guess.

Another point was the lack of an aim. While true in the beginning, I do have clear goals that I set and achieve for the last 2 years at least. Partly determined by the community itself, through suggestions and polls. Leading point on these polls, again and again, is adding more features, regardless of how large Dwarf Mode already is.

For those claiming that the multiple playable races do not add new mechanisms, I would like to request at least that you try them out once. Especially Gnomes, Warlocks and Humans make use of new game mechanics and play fundamentally different from dwarves.

[Talvieno]

I don't think Meph would include something against one's wishes.

Strongly agreed with this - he came to me directly and asked if I would permit him to use my utility before he put it in.

I've downloaded Masterwork in the past, mostly to learn from the vast amount of raws it included, and to use a couple of the utilities. Perfect World and a couple others come to mind. I've never used it, though... It's a bit too big of a change for me to really get into it, I suppose, but I feel tempted from time to time.

[Meph]

I only had positive responses when I asked about adding content, be it utilities, raws, artwork... that goes from normal Df modders, over programmers to artists. The only exception of this are the images in the first page of each race-specific thread, as they are from Google.

On the other hand, the responses I get after things have been included for a while differ. For example you, Talvieno, did not even realize that your utility was still included at this moment... Roses responded very positively by saying he is glad that someone makes use of his scripts, after I showed him the upgrade/guildsystem I wrote for human mode with them... while Darkflagrance wasnt sure if his Fortress Defense II was still being used. Its included in MDF and I often see posts about its features in the MDF board, less so in darkflagrances own thread. I had to personally tell him this, otherwise he would have assumed that less people used it, while in fact it is more.

[burned]

Vanilla DF vs. Masterwork. Please dont. Its not a contest, its not "versus", its not a Toady vs. Meph Deathmatch. I have seen discussions about this, and they never lead to anything, nor are they pretty.

The lack of documentation has been named several times... I might have to remind everyone that Toady One does not do one at all. The community does write the wiki. I have to mod and write documentation, because the MDF users are not as good as the vanilla users when it comes to updating wikis. Partly because I update more frequently I guess.

Your words come off as disingenuous. Your response to the lack of documentation is a direct comparison to your work versus Toady's, the MDF users versus the vanilla users and (as you already stated) will not "lead to anything" productive. The lack of documentation is a valid criticism of masterwork to some users in this thread. I don't think the manner in which you addressed the issue is helpful to the discussion.

I personally didn't appreciate the last sentence of that paragraph.

As someone who is not interested in masterwork, I am not sure that my reasons would be helpful. I guess it's just not my cup of tea as Vattic put it.

[Meph]

That was neither comparing Toady to me nor DF to MDF. It was only about the ability of a large group of people updating a wiki in comparison to a small group of people not updating a wiki. No harm intended.

[k33n]

I dislike the proliferation of common races and other fantasy tropes - it takes the weird aspects of DF and makes it generic and tired. Also that you take donations leaves a very yucky taste in my mouth.

[sum1won]

Biggest issue is that as things stand, MDF seems to be less stable than even 40.0x vanilla, and runs slower thanks to terrible loading times.

[mifki]

Also that you take donations leaves a very yucky taste in my mouth.

Why is that?

[Meph]

I am not the only modder that accepts donations. Compared to Toadys influx of donations, mine are almost not noticeable. August for example I got one donation over 25$. Generally hovering between 0 and 100$ a month, only exceptions were the two fundraisers, which worked similar to Rainseekers Animal Sponsoring Drive for vanilla Df. People vote on their favourite topic and I worked a month on those topics each.

[Meph]

Biggest issue is that as things stand, MDF seems to be less stable than even 40.0x vanilla, and runs slower thanks to terrible loading times.

Loadind and saving times, as well as worldgen are slower, but ingame FPS are higher. I personally run DF on a SSD and not a HDD, so save/load times are almost instantly. It takes longer than vanilla, because there are more files to copy into the save folders.

The instability is mostly worldgen, or directly at embark. I have not gotten any crash reports on the humans or the hermit, the newest additions to the mod. Generally, if a game crashes, it was dfhack, so disabling it, playing past the crash and enabling it again should help. I recommend using quicksave a lot, like in any other game.

Of course it would be nicer not to have any at all, but modders have a hard time finding the sources of such issues.

edit: Sorry for the double post, I write on a phone and thought that quote was added to my post above.

[Devstorm]

I liked the way it looked enough to download it. Unfortunately, I can't tell you how it played for me. DF crashes as soon as I try to actually play the game through the Masterwork interface. So I've gone back to playing what I did prior to trying it out.

[burned]

There are a lot of people that provide free content online and then put their virtual hat out so to speak (this includes myself). Video creators, podcast editors, and even just blog post writers - people who put time and effort into some of the best free content out there; this includes the great game Dwarf Fortress.

It goes without saying that anyone who doesn't like said content isn't forced to donate.

I am not the only modder that accepts donations. Compared to Toadys influx of donations, mine are almost not noticeable. August for example I got one donation over 25$. Generally hovering between 0 and 100$ a month, only exceptions were the two fundraisers, which worked similar to Rainseekers Animal Sponsoring Drive for vanilla Df. People vote on their favourite topic and I worked a month on those topics each.

Ignoring your consensus fallacy, I don't really follow why making a Toady/meph comparison (again) about how much you get versus Toady is relevant. Nor do I see how the Animal Sponsor Drive and your fundraiser(s) are apt.

However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.

I don't have a problem with people asking for money for the work they are doing, but I don't want to become entangled with anybody financially.  So I'd prefer not to receive any money or have Bay 12 be involved with any of the logistics.

Yes, I realize that Toady didn't say "No" when you originally sought him out regarding your first fundraiser, but Mifki seems to be in the dark about why this might be an issue with some people and based on how you responded to k33n's remark perhaps his comment is lost on you as well.

PeridexisErrant and fricy currently set a better precedent than your masterwork fundraisers. The difference is obvious, but I am not sure if it's reasonable to suspect that I can convince you otherwise, much in the same way that you could not convince me masterwork is interesting.

Other people like your work; other people enjoy masterwork. You have a sub-forum for masterwork. While it may be preaching to the choir as you put it "over there", "over here" it feels like reading a discussion on ASCII versus graphic sets interrupted by someone stepping in to point out that it's actually code page 437. The value is lost on me.

What is it that you are seeking here?