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Author Topic: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think - Posted my conclusion  (Read 15675 times)

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2014, 02:29:00 am »

If someone is jealous of Masterwork, I would expect them to come up with all kinds of weak-sauce reasons to complain about it. I think the onus is on folks who complain at things like MW, without constructively working on solutions, to demonstrate that they aren't just yowling out of jealousy :D

You. You and people like you and saying what you just said are the reason I won't even give Masterwork a look.

Meph came and asked for thoughts, including criticisms. For the most part people have given their thoughts politely and respectfully.

This is not "looking for reasons to complain about it" because we're "jealous".

There is no obligation for us to work on Meph's mod if we don't like it. I mean, what? What the hell is your problem?
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Arbinire

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2014, 02:49:04 am »

This is simply equivocation. Homogenized as you're describing it is in terms of syntax. Homogenized as corrosivechains is describing it is in terms of it all becoming one big mod called Masterwork.

Well....not necessarily called Masterwork :P but yes, that is exactly the spirit of what I meant ;)
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smakemupagus

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2014, 08:16:35 am »

I'm pretty sure he was suggesting that people who feel strongly about increasing the visibility of other mods could direct their energy to community solutions like working on a modpack launcher, making community games to increase visibility of the other mods, posting supportive feedback to the other mods, etc.

Meph

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2014, 08:29:27 am »

I will be back in Germany tomorrow, with access to a PC and will answer all questions I can, followed by a personal note on the discussion.

Till then I would like to ask everyone to keep their calm, please.

Just a quick comment on the latest pages: I was comparing the amount of donations to make it clear that MDF is not hurting Toadys income, since I assumed that this was meant with the comments towards a yucky taste. I would also like to remind everyone that accepting donations is not the same as taking money for something. Even Dwarf Therapist, a tool used by almost everyone has a donate button. Lastly, while it is true that sometimes people falsely attribute work to me that I did not do, especially on reddit, I would never take credit for other peoples work. I might add that by far the largest parts of the mod are written by me as well, since it seems that people unfamiliar with it sometimes assume that I simply collect and merge other peoples work. While I also do this, I can asure everyone that the largest part of the Raws were written by me myself.

Till then, please continue discussing, I dont mind a few harsh words, regardless of me agreeing to the opinion or not. But the fact alone that this thread has a lively discussion is sign enough for me that it was the right decision to post it.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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burned

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2014, 11:46:04 am »

I was comparing the amount of donations to make it clear that MDF is not hurting Toadys income, since I assumed that this was meant with the comments towards a yucky taste. I would also like to remind everyone that accepting donations is not the same as taking money for something. Even Dwarf Therapist, a tool used by almost everyone has a donate button.

I don't have a problem with anyone asking for donations - whether it's masterwork, dwarf therapist, whatever. It's the fundraisers that leave the yucky taste. If you want to continue with consensus comparisons, the same yucky taste would be present if Dwarf Therapist did the same thing.

I realize that donating to Toady and contributing to another cause or fundraiser is not mutually exclusive, but the idea that you're doing it "in his house" is jarring.

There are 4 types of people; those that like you for the right reasons, like you for the wrong reasons, dislike you for the wrong reasons, and dislike you for the right reasons.  Only the last group really matters.  -Mangled quote by somebody whom I don't know the name of.

It's difficult for me to judge whether disliking your fundraisers is for the wrong reasons or if disliking your fundraisers is for the right reasons. As I mentioned previously, the feeling is fueled by passion and I am not sure it is something I can adequately convey to someone who doesn't feel the same way.
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arbarbonif

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2014, 01:31:56 pm »

There are 4 types of people; those that like you for the right reasons, like you for the wrong reasons, dislike you for the wrong reasons, and dislike you for the right reasons.  Only the last group really matters.  -Mangled quote by somebody whom I don't know the name of.
It's difficult for me to judge whether disliking your fundraisers is for the wrong reasons or if disliking your fundraisers is for the right reasons. As I mentioned previously, the feeling is fueled by passion and I am not sure it is something I can adequately convey to someone who doesn't feel the same way.
That was more aimed at the "Why bother asking people who don't play Masterwork" question.  I think disliking the fundraisers on Toady's site is not unreasonable, but I kind of get a feeling that it is almost as much making sure people actually want it rather then trying to get cash money.  He certainly doesn't set a overly high bar to hit for them.

Meph is very quick to give credit to the people that actually wrote the parts of MDF that he didn't write, though it should probably be clearer in the mod itself (i.e. in the launcher).  Alas, I doubt that an acknowledgments page would actually stop people from attributing to Meph that which is not Meph's (and anything more complete would be hard to fit in the UI without it being too in the way).  And as I write this I realize I don't even know if there is an acknowledgement page in there already...
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Nopenope

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2014, 01:53:13 pm »

The point is that Toady condones what Meph is doing (he even semi-supports it in a way since he added a special forum for MW) so there's no need to have a yucky taste for someone else. And to be honest, I don't think the total amount of MW donations (~$2000 I think, aka ~€1500 in Europe which is barely above minimum wage in most countries) actually harmed Toady's income.
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Putnam

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #127 on: August 27, 2014, 02:23:23 pm »

The MW forum was because it was asked for, same as the rest of the modding subforums.

burned

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #128 on: August 27, 2014, 02:57:17 pm »

The point is that Toady condones what Meph is doing (he even semi-supports it in a way since he added a special forum for MW) so there's no need to have a yucky taste for someone else. And to be honest, I don't think the total amount of MW donations (~$2000 I think, aka ~€1500 in Europe which is barely above minimum wage in most countries) actually harmed Toady's income.

While I don't appreciate you telling me how I should feel, how is any of what you said correlative?
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The process of delving into the black abyss is to me the keenest form of fascination. - H. P. Lovecraft
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Nopenope

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #129 on: August 27, 2014, 03:24:03 pm »

The MW forum was because it was asked for, same as the rest of the modding subforums.

We do need a DFHack forum. Hopefully people won't attribute things to MW when the DFHack folks get more than a few gigantic threads to discuss their latest research.

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While I don't appreciate you telling me how I should feel, how is any of what you said correlative?
Uh, not sure what you mean. Feel free to feel however you feel you should feel.
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Dyret

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #130 on: August 27, 2014, 04:22:59 pm »

I feel you're being disingenuous when you say you feel he's free to feel however he feels he should feel. I feel you really feel he should feel the way you feel he should feel. That's just how I feel though.
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k33n

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #131 on: August 27, 2014, 04:59:25 pm »

I feel you're being disingenuous when you say you feel he's free to feel however he feels he should feel. I feel you really feel he should feel the way you feel he should feel. That's just how I feel though.

I feel ya.
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Meph

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #132 on: August 27, 2014, 05:11:50 pm »

I feel you're being disingenuous when you say you feel he's free to feel however he feels he should feel. I feel you really feel he should feel the way you feel he should feel. That's just how I feel though.
Difficult to judge sarcasm on the internet. :)

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"Why bother asking people who don't play Masterwork"
Obviously to figure out why, and change it. ;) Of course I cant affect things like "I dont like mods" or "I dont like additions that are no done by Toady when it comes to lore", but with "its overwhelming", or "I wish I could set it to vanilla with the launcher" and similar reports, I can work with.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

mnjiman

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #133 on: August 27, 2014, 08:13:24 pm »

The mod is attempting to be much more then it actually is. Thats the issue. You have a niche community and you are attempting to please everyone as much as possible. Why? Find a popular niche and try to focus on that. Even for a game like dwarf fortress this mod has too much fat. Good, I am happy it adds lots to the game many people like. Does not change that fact that there is too many options.


As someone said already "I think MDF has a problem with option paralysis." This sums up the issue perfectly. Even this thread and your current attitude in this thread is proof that this is occurring. Look at your mod. You toke away options from the main game just to add more options. Sure these options now have more meaning, but your are just shoving in these meanings just because. There is no balance. No Elegance. No.... smoothness. I just see fat upon fat.

You have to ask yourself "What are your goals right now?" because honestly, I think your kidding yourself if you think what you are doing here is the right course of action. It really isn't.

For now, IMO you should stop posting in this thread and let people just talk amongst themselves.
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Sutremaine

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Re: Masterwork Mod - Let me know what you think, anything goes.
« Reply #134 on: August 27, 2014, 09:15:46 pm »

I dislike that MW has become its own huge thing, but I think that's been covered enough.

I also dislike how much it relies on DFHack, though that's a purely personal thing. There's a sort of elegance I find about taking an idea and fitting it into DF and its modding limitations while still retaining the essence of the idea. With DFHack you can just steamroll those barriers, for better or worse.

There seems to be so much stuff in MW. What is the mod for? Is it a total conversion? Is it a collection of addons? Are its changes ones made to fix perceived problems with the vanilla DF experience?

I dunno, I just feel uneasy about MW.
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