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Author Topic: Feedback of 0.40.XX  (Read 6700 times)

thvaz

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Feedback of 0.40.XX
« on: August 19, 2014, 10:33:17 am »

Regarding stuck flying creature, it was most of the underground creatures as well, once they got up on walls, and also some that got up in trees and so on.  I followed many different creatures off the map, so I think it is working now for all of the problem creatures.

I could probably use a few more saves to mess around with in the morale report (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7161).  A few pieces of it were fixed (with ambushes, hopefully), a few pieces are intended though they may be out of whack or badly articulated (strangers freaking out when you move at them with a drawn weapon, corpse fright, some peaceful bandits), and there are lots of plainly broken pieces -- I'll be able to work much faster to address the specific concerns people have with something concrete, since there are so many moving parts now and it's difficult to recreate the issues that are most annoying sometimes.

Toady is finding difficult to point the problems of adventurer mode. We know there are a series of issues with it, most of them already reported. Toady needs saves for these problems, but I think that something that is lacking for him is feedback about the problems of the adventurer mode in the new version. I find it significantly less fun than in 0.34.11.

Reasons:
1) the game doesn't convey enough information to the player. People attack you and you don't know why. People run from you because your weapon is drawn - but just sometimes. Your companions sometimes attack random people in the streets - it was a bandit? a grudge? Your companion is a psycopath? It is hard to know. NPCs should explain some basic things of what they are doing, even if it is as a placeholder for now.
2)People talk about all kind of trouble, but no one gives you a quest. Well, sometimes they ask you to do something, but it is never registered as a mission. You should confirm that you are doing that mission and the game should track your success. Right now there is barely any sense of acomplishment as it was in 0.34.11.
3) Companions are even less useful, leaving you on "a important mission" or just watching you kill other things. Sometimes they kill people you weren't supposed to kill.
4) Reputation system looks like it is broken. With a adventurer I killed about 30 night creatures and people from my civ barely noticed me.

Help out with saves for the bugs or with feedback!
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Robsoie

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 10:50:18 am »

I am not sure if it's really needed as relationships, emotions and reaction are broken all over the place that just playing and you run into those problem in no time, but here are 2 saves i reported from 0.40.08

-Companions AI relationship with an undead dingo completely broken as not only they don't help me fighting the beast and the beast don't even try to fight them, but one of the companions actually greet the beast :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8027

-Informations and rumours aren't properly updated with the NPC, probably not helping in the changes of relationships :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8043

Additionally, stealth is very broken too, anyone that you'll hit when being under stealth will just wait there until you finish to kill them, they will not try to flee, they'll just spam the "it's suspicious" while they have already a dozen of sword stabbing wound in the head.
You can basically annihilate a whole civ all by yourself.

Only some night creatures, the undeads and the bogeymen seems to work properly .
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:01:32 am by Robsoie »
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smjjames

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 03:06:07 pm »

#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.

Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.

Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.
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Shizmoo

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 06:13:23 pm »

#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.

Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.

Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.

How many kills do you have to report to achieve that? I killed 20 peeps from missions and reported it and haven't seen a change in reaction. I dont think thats true about companions, other people said they got more.
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thvaz

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 06:21:19 pm »

#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.

Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.

Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.

You can check your reputation in legends mode after you retire. It isn't changing a bit. The 30 night creatures I killed had the rumours spread and I was still considered just a member.
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smjjames

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 06:25:33 pm »

#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.

Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.

Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.

You can check your reputation in legends mode after you retire. It isn't changing a bit. The 30 night creatures I killed had the rumours spread and I was still considered just a member.

Would be nice to be able to check the reputation outside of legends mode. Unless...... it actually does show in the groups list? Though the groups list never shows anything other than my home civilization and the group that governs my hometown/homevillage, and whatever groups I create.

As for the companions, how do you recruit, say, 10 in total? Outside of prisioners.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:11:03 pm by smjjames »
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thvaz

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 01:48:41 am »

#1 big time. There just isn't enough information, and the fact that they say 'it's inevitable' most of the time doesn't help either.

Regarding reputation, you have to mention the rumors. However, even though with enough kills, their responses will change to star struck and 'OMG HERO!', you can still only have two or three companions at a time, whereas in 34.11, you could have a small army of up to 16-20 recruited companions.

Would also be nice to know what things Toady one would like saves for, although most problems seem really easy to reproduce.
You can check your reputation in legends mode after you retire. It isn't changing a bit. The 30 night creatures I killed had the rumours spread and I was still considered just a member.

Would be nice to be able to check the reputation outside of legends mode. Unless...... it actually does show in the groups list? Though the groups list never shows anything other than my home civilization and the group that governs my hometown/homevillage, and whatever groups I create.

As for the companions, how do you recruit, say, 10 in total? Outside of prisioners.

I never got more than 3 at the same time, but the total of companions should be more, as they are always leaving the party.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 01:29:41 pm by thvaz »
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blakker

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 08:11:09 am »

2)People talk about all kind of trouble, but no one gives you a quest. Well, sometimes they ask you to do something, but it is never registered as a mission. You should confirm that you are doing that mission and the game should track your success. Right now there is barely any sense of acomplishment as it was in 0.34.11.

This this this this this this this.
The Quest screen is a mess, it'd be better if it didn't listen virtually every event that happened right at the start. I know there's a filter to search, but good luck if you took a longer break and forgot what you were about to do. A quest tag on accepted/completed stuff would be help (with a dialogue option to actually accept a task, I'm not even sure you can do that at the moment even), even more so if those would be automatically sent on the top of the list.
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byrnsey

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 09:44:36 am »

Maybe this is just me, but I tried playing one game, and with a Dwarven Adventurer, locally important hero, kept starting in a fortress below the first cavern (I'm assuming it was the first, based on the trees)  Tried finding my way out, but eventually starved to death.  It was all rooms full of forges and mason workshops below the cavern, which led up to an enormous road and fields, but the roads never led to an up stair.

Then another dwarf adventurer, unfamous peasant, started in a smaller fortress.  I was able to find my way out by 'T'raveling, and eventually came to a 'fortress entrance' square.  He was immediately killed by boogeymen after sleeping till morning indoors, but leaving immediately, when it was still dark out.  Is this a bug?  I don't remember boogeymen attacking in the dawn hours just before sunrise.  Either way, sleeping till dawn should prevent Boogeyman attacks until the next sundown.

Anyway, I restarted, with the same type of dwarf as I started with locally important hero, and ended up in the same fort as initially.  Fast Traveling, all I ever saw was Underground Farms and Underground stairs (all of which were down into forge/mason rooms).  Eventually I picked a direction, and starved to death after fast traveling a huge distance.

Am I missing something here?  How are you supposed to deal with these huge underground fortresses that you can't leave, can't get food (plump helmets everywhere, but I can't pick them) can barely get water (the cavern lakes were all 1-Z deep, so I had to be dying of thirst before I'd drinkthe muddy water, also, drinking water coverings - on body parts, weapons, etc - doesn't help as much with thirst.  Makes sense I guess) and have no idea where the 'out' stair is.

Dwarf adventurers should definitely begin at the exit of Forts, if it's necessary for them to begin underground at all.  If there's any situation like that for humans (big Castles? City sewers?) I'd say the same.

Also, I noticed in the last iteration that anytime I got near a big city my computer would lag to the point that the game is unplayable.  It wasn't *as* bad when I was wandering the fortresses in this version, but still noticeable.  It's what kept me from striking out into the under-ness to hunt some food.  The fort was basically deserted though, it would probably get a lot worse with NPC's and items lying around. 
Running a 2007 MacBook Pro with 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 4GB of 667MHz DDR2 SRAM.  Should I hold off on DF, or adventure mode at least, until I get a better rig, or is this a problem everyone experiences?  Is there the intention to fix this?  I guess maybe the best thing to do would be to request some more useful information on the System Requirements page on the DF Wiki?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 09:47:13 am by byrnsey »
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Witty

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 09:56:49 am »

This is a very common issue with dwarven adventurers. There is an exit, but there's only one per fort. And fort generation can sometimes cut whole areas off from other parts of the fort, meaning you can very likely spawn in an area that has no escape. The exit staircase also isn't a traditional staircase, it's a ring of ramps that leads to the surface.

Site lag is a problem, and it doesn't really seem that modern processors can make a huge dent with it. My i5 quad core 3.5 GHz can run an adventurer through a generated dwarven fort well enough. But DF doesn't even utltize more than one core, so I guess the point is mostly moot.

Toady hasn't mentioned plans to combat site lag AFAIK.


edited for a bit of clarity
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 12:43:59 pm by Witty »
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I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.

Robsoie

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 12:24:11 pm »

He may not have plans, but i suspect some of the bugfixes that will come with time will help with some of the sites unplayable lags.

In the incoming version, he fixed

6737 - Flying animals (e.g. birds) stuck in mid air (prevents invasions?)
Fliers stuck (and probably generating cascade of pathfinding failure) has a noticable impact on Fortress mode, this one should really help.
And in case the flier can be stuck in adventure mode too, maybe we'll see progress.

In the current version he fixed
7821 - Animal overpopulations multiply/replenish after waiting/sleeping in worldgen fortresses, cause extreme lag
That really didn't helped with many sites, though i have not yet explored enough site in 40.09 to see if it makes a difference (especially as i didn't go near a dark fortress in that version, usually the worst offenders)

I'm sure more of the bugfixes will help with the frustrating lag of some sites.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 12:26:46 pm by Robsoie »
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thvaz

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 01:33:39 pm »

Goblins are completely out of control right now and visiting a Dark fortress is almost impossible due to lag.

The problem with exits in dwarven fortresses is a big issue too. You should really start at the exit - if you know where it is it is a lot easier to navigate inside the fortress.

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Mopsy

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 03:50:48 pm »

Underground travel would be less confusing if your sight radius on the travel map was greater than one tile. A dwarf adventurer - who should have used those tunnels hundreds of times before - shouldn't be groping around in the dark like that. The asterisks that represent other travelers could still be absent underground, preventing you from knowing what might be waiting around the next bend.

Another thing about worldgen fortresses: Does anyone know why bug 6563 and bug 5598 haven't been fixed yet? It seems like a straightforward change to make.
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smjjames

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2014, 05:09:47 pm »

Underground travel would be less confusing if your sight radius on the travel map was greater than one tile. A dwarf adventurer - who should have used those tunnels hundreds of times before - shouldn't be groping around in the dark like that. The asterisks that represent other travelers could still be absent underground, preventing you from knowing what might be waiting around the next bend.

Another thing about worldgen fortresses: Does anyone know why bug 6563 and bug 5598 haven't been fixed yet? It seems like a straightforward change to make.

No idea on those two. Also, has anybody EVER found steel in the worldgen fortress/mountainhome shops?
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Witty

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Re: Feedback of 0.40.XX
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2014, 07:16:35 pm »

Underground travel would be less confusing if your sight radius on the travel map was greater than one tile. A dwarf adventurer - who should have used those tunnels hundreds of times before - shouldn't be groping around in the dark like that. The asterisks that represent other travelers could still be absent underground, preventing you from knowing what might be waiting around the next bend.

Another thing about worldgen fortresses: Does anyone know why bug 6563 and bug 5598 haven't been fixed yet? It seems like a straightforward change to make.

I could have sworn Toady mentioned in one of the first bug fixing devlogs that this was on the immediate menu. Can't imagine why it hasn't gotten the squash yet. Maybe the problem was more complex than originally thought? 
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Quote from: Toady One
I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.
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