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[E. Albright]

(For instance substitute chaos gods with lovecraft's great old ones... which were the likely inspiration anyway)

Enh, at a minimum "not entirely" - while I have no inside scoop on the original GW design notes, I feel pretty safe in saying e.g. Nurgle cribs at least somewhat from Nergal. There's a lot of traditional myths cobbled onto some setting-specific stuff that, yes, includes some Mythosesque "outsider" tropes, but HPL is hardly the whole story.

[Frumple]

Probably not even a majority? The only ones of the major four that sorta' tracks with lovecraft is maybe tzeentch in general and some of the body horror aspects of slaanesh. There's mythos style tropes at play with some of the forbidden knowledge mess but they're definitely not what I'd call major (and more "psyker" than chaos, prolly).

Khorne and nurgle are pretty not lovecraftian, imo, and the general theme of the chaos gods as a thing is like the exact opposite of a mythos divinity, fairly explicitly arising from the psyche and whatnot of sentients. The elder gods and old ones an' crap are like the overt antithesis of that general concept, heh. They're closer to the star gods/c'tan or whatever's driving the 'nids, and even those don't really super track well to mythos critters compared to other tropes.

... that said, going a strong mythos route for something like chapter master could be kinda' interesting. Probably sorta' unpleasant to actually play 'cause there'd be a lot of "whoops, opened the wrong box and something ate the galaxy", but I could see some folks going for it. I've seen fiction off and on try to run with that sort of concept -- a more or less human organization/nation/whatever aware of and trying to function in very mythos settings -- and it can be pretty interesting... just very hard to do well, 'cause the default state of non-mythos beings in a mythos setting is "hyperfucked on every level", including levels that don't exist until a mythos being decides to invent it to wreck something.

[Rolan7]

That's true, the Chaos gods and warp-entities in general are fundamentally obsessed with humanity.  Largely creations of us, even.  Mythos beings are generally the opposite.  Core to Lovecraft's horror is that all of humanity's history and works are meaningless compared to the vast cosmos.  40k's horror is that all our feelings become manifest, and we have to face them in battle.
(Technically not just our darkest feelings, but a conceit of the universe is that everything is awful forever, and the Warp reflects humanity being unhappy about that)

Most people in the Mythos universe get by just fine, actually!  It's just those curious foolish, unlucky protagonists who stumble upon secrets which they ought not have known.  Because knowing you're *not* the center of the universe is... bad, supposedly.  It's certainly horrifying.

[Egan_BW]

Silly lovecraft, the real horror is in finding out that it is all about you after all!

[Cruxador]

... that said, going a strong mythos route for something like chapter master could be kinda' interesting. Probably sorta' unpleasant to actually play 'cause there'd be a lot of "whoops, opened the wrong box and something ate the galaxy", but I could see some folks going for it. I've seen fiction off and on try to run with that sort of concept -- a more or less human organization/nation/whatever aware of and trying to function in very mythos settings -- and it can be pretty interesting... just very hard to do well, 'cause the default state of non-mythos beings in a mythos setting is "hyperfucked on every level", including levels that don't exist until a mythos being decides to invent it to wreck something.

This is very much exaggerated. And I know some later authors do this too, but if you look at original stuff, most stories, if they have a monster, have a monster that is notable for its strangeness or the relation it has to the protagonist, not for a high power level. That's why a franchise like Delta Green can have ordinary people (at least to start with) fighting and sort of winning, and Randolph Carter does okay too, even in Lovecraft's original stuff. There's no reason something as high powered as space marines couldn't stand against them and expect to win under some circumstances.

The key difference, I think, is that there's a lot more variation in how the entities work when they're taken from a wide range of short stories rather than something that was meant to be cohesive from the beginning. You'd want to have lots of different entities and races, many with their own mechanics.

That's true, the Chaos gods and warp-entities in general are fundamentally obsessed with humanity.  Largely creations of us, even.  Mythos beings are generally the opposite.

In Celephaïs, the knights come to get him and make him their god because the city was formed of his dreams.

Core to Lovecraft's horror is that all of humanity's history and works are meaningless compared to the vast cosmos. 

This is also very much exaggerated. Although fear of the unknown and powerlessness certainly come up, many of the stories are "something weird and bad happened" and there isn't that much more to it than that. Sure, the weird and bad thing is initially unknown to the protagonist, but that's a fundamental conceit of the larger horror genre; a dawning realization as you learn more of the situation throughout the story. By no means specific to Lovecraft, his contemporaries, or his imitators.

[E. Albright]

The major uniting theme in Lovecraft is the unpleasantness of alterity. There is the familiar, and there is the unknown, and the unknown is bad, possibly to the point that the two can't be reconciled by reason.

I've given some more thought to the whole "Roman Empire in space" genericification schema I sorta discussed previously (because I've toyed with doing something with it, TBH, even though it's never gotten past "partially conceptualize the system and maybe download the latest build of Unity to poke at a little"), and re: deities, there's no need to go any further afield than the Greco-Roman pantheon. Apollo/Nurgle, Hermes/Tzeentch, Venus/Slaanesh, Mars/Khorne would work as far as mechanics go even if the aesthetics don't match (and that's fine, as "placeholder that can be modded" is going to be more concerned with mechanics than aesthetics), and if you want to fluff out the fluff, take a page from Eclipse Phase and have the "chaos gods" really be something humans created, with Apollo as ascended rogue medical AI, Hermes as ascended rogue communication/computing AI, Venus as ascended rogue social/media AI, and Mars as ascended rogue military AI...

[Rolan7]

Apollo/Nurgle, Hermes/Tzeentch, Venus/Slaanesh, Mars/Khorne

That works extraordinarily well actually!  Jesus Christ
_/Malal

[Cruxador]

The major uniting theme in Lovecraft is the unpleasantness of alterity. There is the familiar, and there is the unknown, and the unknown is bad, possibly to the point that the two can't be reconciled by reason.

I think it's can be considered subjective whether it's bad in Celephaïs, since after all there's a death, but in general the dreamlands are shown as being more pleasant than the waking world. Look at their introduction in The White Ship. That story is wholly wistful and more reminiscent of something C.S. Lewis might have written (and particularly, because of the nautical journey theme, Prince Caspian) than it is like the tentacled memery that plagues the common recollection of Lovecraft's work.

I've given some more thought to the whole "Roman Empire in space" genericification schema I sorta discussed previously (because I've toyed with doing something with it, TBH, even though it's never gotten past "partially conceptualize the system and maybe download the latest build of Unity to poke at a little"), and re: deities, there's no need to go any further afield than the Greco-Roman pantheon. Apollo/Nurgle, Hermes/Tzeentch, Venus/Slaanesh, Mars/Khorne would work as far as mechanics go even if the aesthetics don't match (and that's fine, as "placeholder that can be modded" is going to be more concerned with mechanics than aesthetics), and if you want to fluff out the fluff, take a page from Eclipse Phase and have the "chaos gods" really be something humans created, with Apollo as ascended rogue medical AI, Hermes as ascended rogue communication/computing AI, Venus as ascended rogue social/media AI, and Mars as ascended rogue military AI...

I like the idea of chaos demons as robots; the parallels fit and the idea of rogue AIs certainly leads well to the sci-fi writer's favorite vice: Commentary on modern society. Especially making Tzeentch the Facebook or YouTube algorithm. The main issue I see here is that it doesn't have a particularly good explanation for cultists or corruption – especially corruption of your space marines. Is everyone so cybered up that they can get a digital virus? Or would you dive all the way deep into wetware hacking? That's a level of horror not less than Lovecraft's stuff. Reminds me a bit of the Minotaur story.

[Frumple]

Eh, memetic infection is literally straight out of mythos inspired sci-fi. I've seen the concept more than once, beings that spread or influence just by being known, and it's not like it's far off of a thought from real world stochastic terrorism. A malignant AI running social engineering or just real damn good propaganda to bring down worlds or subvert military isn't particularly out there. Can go into cyber or wetware hacking, but it's not exactly necessary. Could be interesting grounds for subversion, too, the non-AI (or maybe just non-hostile AI, if you don't want to go full artificial sentient xenophobia route) actually brainjacking their forces to prevent conversion.

This is very much exaggerated. And I know some later authors do this too, but if you look at original stuff, most stories, if they have a monster, have a monster that is notable for its strangeness or the relation it has to the protagonist, not for a high power level.

Most of the stories are, sure. But there's also things crawling around that are world enders, with indication (though I'm less sure explicit statement) even from lovecraft 'imself that some of the critters (ala Azathoth) might be capable of just more or less deleting reality. Include stuff beyond lovecraft and you're very much dealing with a setting where you're probably able to deal with a lot of things but you're also hoping real hard you don't wake up any of the big'uns, 'cause there just ain't nothing you, your species, and possibly the local galactic cluster can do if they turn active.

[Cruxador]

Eh, memetic infection is literally straight out of mythos inspired sci-fi. I've seen the concept more than once, beings that spread or influence just by being known, and it's not like it's far off of a thought from real world stochastic terrorism. A malignant AI running social engineering or just real damn good propaganda to bring down worlds or subvert military isn't particularly out there. Can go into cyber or wetware hacking, but it's not exactly necessary. Could be interesting grounds for subversion, too, the non-AI (or maybe just non-hostile AI, if you don't want to go full artificial sentient xenophobia route) actually brainjacking their forces to prevent conversion.

I mean, there are plenty of people who can recount a tale of a family member or other acquaintance who changed drastically, especially in their political views, due to exposure to heavily slanted and misleading media. Nurses becoming anti-vaxxers, and whatnot. But I think to most people, getting the kind of drastic changes like you see from 40k corruption would be beyond what you'd expect from that, and treating people who are "corrupted" by ordinary non-magical information as a dangerous infection would be politically polarizing. And even those sympathetic in principle would probably find it too real to be pleasant lore.

This is very much exaggerated. And I know some later authors do this too, but if you look at original stuff, most stories, if they have a monster, have a monster that is notable for its strangeness or the relation it has to the protagonist, not for a high power level.

Most of the stories are, sure. But there's also things crawling around that are world enders, with indication (though I'm less sure explicit statement) even from lovecraft 'imself that some of the critters (ala Azathoth) might be capable of just more or less deleting reality. Include stuff beyond lovecraft and you're very much dealing with a setting where you're probably able to deal with a lot of things but you're also hoping real hard you don't wake up any of the big'uns, 'cause there just ain't nothing you, your species, and possibly the local galactic cluster can do if they turn active.

Azathoth wouldn't be appropriate, sure. At least not as someone that actually turns up in the gameplay. But even among more powerful entities, they're not necessarily a different level of threat than Khorne; either way if they turn up in person at full power, you lose.

[E. Albright]

At the risk of showing exactly how much thought I've put into this... There's still a lot of edges to be rounded out, and probably some extrenious kitchen-sink ideas needing pruned, but it's been starting to seem an awful lot more cohesive than when I originally proposed my idea of space Romans upthread 18mo ago...

(Also, I said Hermes, but I meant Mercury, as that's the Roman version. Also, that way we Apollonian/Mercurian/Venusian/Martian legionaires ;p )

Cultist/legion corruption is done in two ways. Or sorta three.

First, the straightforward as discussed above. Before the fall/split/etc. legionaires were wired to the gills - target assistance, skillsofts, internal personal assistants, digital eidetic memories, hormone/neuorchemical regulators, etc. Super cyborgs, IOW. Then comes the Singularity, when the many assorted networks became or revealed that they had gained sentience. Hell breaks loose, many legions are variously hacked by computer viruses that just make them meat puppets/fed consistent false realities that make them think they are the loyal legions/corrupted by internally whispered spite, envy, etc. coupled with selective dopamine "encouragement" (or should Venus just be drowned in neurochemicals until they're basically desperate slave-junkies who'll do whatever their implants demand to keep their bliss? Which is more totally-not-Slaanesh?)/screwing with memories, adrenaline, hormones, etc. to the point where they basically devolve into clever predatory pack animals. (The idea of these as varied corruptions rather than all corrupted legions just being brute-forced hacked meat puppets needs massaged, as it was literally just now patched together a posteriori - that is, from my posterior) Those that stay loyal are the strongest-willed, least augmented, quickest to go under the knife to go back to just meat, etc. AI of all sorts is banned, and any too-high tech is suspect. Thus, cultists are dabbling with forbidden "magics" and powers in order to let the AIs into their heads and their world. In from where? Well, when the Empire wins the rebellion, the AIs flee into hyperspace, which can be construed as hard-to-navigate, dangerous-to-normal-3-d objects 4+ dimensional space consisting mostly of wild non-entropic energy that the defeated AIs flee into and exist as abstract patterns within. AI-corrupted legions are thus a finite quantity, as new ones aren't susceptible to their old tricks. Well... that's the "abstract" AIs. The "implemented" AIs took a cruder approach, didn't have distinct identities, and distributed their consciousness into hordes of self-replicating machines and flung themselves into the void at near-C speeds, where they lurk and return from time to time for vengeance, resources, and assorted inscrutable mechanical reasons. And totally aren't world-eating hordes of bugs, and their "cults" of skinjob infiltrators definitely shouldn't be mistaken for thieves of genetic material.

But why dabble with so dangerous techs in some of the legions but not all? Well, rebellion against the Republic IOT found an Empire, because Rome-ish. And it failed once the AIs became sentient and aggressive. And then hyperspace became dangerous to traverse because it was no longer just a non-Euclidian space that could at great cost be traversed to cheat lightspeed, it was now inhabited by malevolent sentient patterns and their daemon subroutines. So the Republic probably still exists somewhere Over There beyond the turbulent void limiting where the Empire can precariously travel (because there's one kind of hyperspatial interface still allowed in navigators (and emperors), which connects them to the 1st Emperor who uploaded Himself into hyperspace like the AIs (and is totally not just another malevolent AI masquarading as Him and leading the Empire into cruelty and savagery) and grants them His protection and guidance through the hyperplanar hells). And thus, there's also the insidious demos kratos "cults" that preaching heretical "false" histories where the noble first Divine Emperor was a rebel who lost rather than a heroic superhuman who saved humanity from the AIs, and seek to restore "popular rule"... clearly, these are actually dangerous alien memetic infestations needing purged just like cybernetic cultists...

Etc.

(This is the first time I've actually written this schema down, so it is, again, rough around the edges and inelegantly expressed. But I'd like to think it shows the viability of such a not-quite-generic narrative framework.)

[Ekaton]

Is it still beeing developed?

[Frannny]

Is it still beeing developed?

Head dev here of the project "TheIvoryDisaster" Mentioned
We have great progress, Ground and Ship combat (both with sprites instead of squares), a functional starmap with fleet movement, stars, planets and more. All randomly generated! Unlike the original game we have a realtime system and are planning many more new and amazing things!
feel free to join our discord https://discord.gg/phP8eEh
if you can sprite you can be my bestest friend

[Cruxador]

Is it still beeing developed?

Head dev here of the project "TheIvoryDisaster" Mentioned
We have great progress, Ground and Ship combat (both with sprites instead of squares), a functional starmap with fleet movement, stars, planets and more. All randomly generated! Unlike the original game we have a realtime system and are planning many more new and amazing things!
feel free to join our discord https://discord.gg/SVv6Cmd
if you can sprite you can be my bestest friend

I can sprite. I can't commit to being a consistent and reliable team member though, which is what you're gonna need if this is not going to either fizzle or become a one person project in all but name.

Also that invite link seems expired.

[nenjin]

I'd like to be cautiously optimistic, but as the Good Book tells us, Hope Is the First Step On The Road To Disappointment.