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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 363840 times)

anewaname

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4305 on: January 30, 2023, 10:02:53 pm »

Judging a cop's mood is the most important thing, the next is finding out what they believe the legal situation is, which is more important than what you think it is.

The above statement is just "dealing with people who might be on the edge about something not related to you", but I fully understand that racism can completely change the equation, including zero'ing out the possibilities... I'm trying to differentiate these two things because not all cops are racists.
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How did I manage to successfully apply the lessons of The Screwtape Letters to my perceptions of big grocery stores?

Frumple

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4306 on: January 30, 2023, 10:19:09 pm »

Heh. Yeah, I think the common rebut to that these days is, "Sure, some aren't. The ones that quit or got fired."

... well, fired before they murdered someone.

There's less pithy commentary to be had there about the problems of interacting with a corrupt system -- I'm reminded of the old quote about all the sorts of people that abetted the nazis despite (supposedly) not being white supremacists and what they're called by historians -- but I'unno if I got it in me at the moment. US policing is a fragmented, rotten mess that could probably stand being pulled out root and branch, but gods know that's not going to happen anytime soon.
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anewaname

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4307 on: February 02, 2023, 01:33:10 am »

Transcript of Al Sharpton's eulogy for Tyre Nichols, from ABC24, with his pointier points in bold...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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How did I manage to successfully apply the lessons of The Screwtape Letters to my perceptions of big grocery stores?

EuchreJack

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4308 on: February 02, 2023, 03:02:04 am »

I don't think there is enough discussion about Groupthink, and it's corrupting influence on scenarios such as this.

When a group sees one of their own commit a heinous act, the longer it takes for someone to respond, the less likely anyone is to respond. It's why these police murders typically occur in groups, with several police standing around watching the person die. Human psychology is a horrible thing sometimes.

It's counteracted by training, culture, and legislation.

hector13

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4309 on: February 02, 2023, 12:00:39 pm »

I think training is part of the problem. Cops are taught that a traffic stop is one of the most dangerous things they’ll encounter, plus the whole killology nonsense where they’re taught that killing someone is not a last resort.
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Frumple

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4310 on: February 02, 2023, 01:50:39 pm »

I mean, a traffic stop is one of the most dangerous things they'll encounter... because of people other than the one they stopped. Most injuries and deaths related to that is from them getting run over by passing traffic.

Bigbrain note: Easiest way to stop that from being a risk is to just not make a traffic stop. Take a picture of the plates and mail the ticket.
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Cthulhu

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4311 on: February 02, 2023, 01:55:33 pm »

Training is bad but ultimately you're empowering a small subset of the population to threaten and inflict violence on people. It's self-selecting. It will never be good. No equivalent force in history has ever been good.

You can't have good cops.
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EuchreJack

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4312 on: February 02, 2023, 10:37:12 pm »

There is also the mistaken belief that Law Enforcement is not working exactly as intended.

The most abusive law enforcement officials are the generally the ones most imbedded into their communities, the City/Village Cops.
It's their job to move the "riff-raff" out of town.  The locals WANT them to beat up the "riff-raff". The locals don't CARE if there are fatalities, until it hits the news.

Why exactly does a peaceful middle class mostly white town need the largest police force? Hm? Hm? To keep it white by scaring off the blacks!
And that is what they want! That is why they pay so, so, so much money for those cops.

One of our cities implemented a Police Accountability Board. I think the municipality has completely and utterly gutted it by now...

Bigbrain note: Easiest way to stop that from being a risk is to just not make a traffic stop. Take a picture of the plates and mail the ticket.
But then they can't catch drug addicts and run off minorities!

...
Ironically, I'm actually not blaming the cops. They're mostly a product of their environment. Some are decent and some are vital.
Who else are you gonna bitch to when your house gets broken into and your TV stolen?
And when some crazy guy with a machete is running around at 2am, screaming and carrying on, who is gonna talk to him?

...it's admittedly difficult to imagine a world with significantly less cops.  Maybe I'll go watch more Andy Griffith. He was corrupt, but there were only two of them for the whole town, and little outside law enforcement.

jipehog

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4313 on: February 03, 2023, 12:49:25 am »

The most abusive law enforcement officials are the generally the ones most imbedded into their communities, the City/Village Cops.
It's their job to move the "riff-raff" out of town.  The locals WANT them to beat up the "riff-raff". The locals don't CARE if there are fatalities, until it hits the news.
I hope you are not suggesting this is a racial issue. I doubt there is a community on the planet that don't have its 'riff-raff' problem. Also now I am curious if there are policing statistics for middle and upper class predominantly black communities in America.

Have you ever lived in poor or even bad hood? If so, did you think that policing was sufficient or effective?

In my experience, many people feel that police isn't doing enough and judicial system is a revolving door. Also as with anything else everyone prefer good practices but no one is willing to pay unless shit hits the fan.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 12:54:04 am by jipehog »
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anewaname

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4314 on: February 03, 2023, 12:56:27 am »

Ultimately, many of the vectors of the problem are caused by those with high social standing and wealth.

When a law is just, those people have methods of keeping the police from taking action against them or their spawn.

When a law is unjust, it probably was created by some of those people who saw a way to milk profit from those who cannot avoid the consequences of the law (stuff that probably falls under the umbrella of "criminalizing poverty").

That is the foundation that changes how the police institutions are perceived by the public... when the cops are unable to carry out a just law they are seen in a worse light, and when they carry out an unjust law they are seen in a worse light.

Eventually, there is no trust on either side; and one side or the other side wants escalation in preference to deescalation.
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EuchreJack

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4315 on: February 13, 2023, 10:20:03 am »

The most abusive law enforcement officials are the generally the ones most imbedded into their communities, the City/Village Cops.
It's their job to move the "riff-raff" out of town.  The locals WANT them to beat up the "riff-raff". The locals don't CARE if there are fatalities, until it hits the news.
I hope you are not suggesting this is a racial issue. I doubt there is a community on the planet that don't have its 'riff-raff' problem. Also now I am curious if there are policing statistics for middle and upper class predominantly black communities in America.

Have you ever lived in poor or even bad hood? If so, did you think that policing was sufficient or effective?

In my experience, many people feel that police isn't doing enough and judicial system is a revolving door. Also as with anything else everyone prefer good practices but no one is willing to pay unless shit hits the fan.

Recently, Mitchellville, Maryland, made headlines because it is currently under investigation by the governor of the state. The Republican governor, Larry Hogan, wanted to understand the rise in graduation rates and decrease of crime for this community. The governor and his team suspect cheating on test scores and padding of the percentage numbers, but the major source of suspicion is that this community is both affluent and Black. In fact, it ranks on the list of the 10 most affluent Black communities in America. It's also a little town that we've never heard of. Of course our curiosity got the best of us and we had to find the other places where Black people are living and thriving. Check out the Rich List of Black communities across the United States. See if you can spot your neighborhood on here.

TD1

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4316 on: February 13, 2023, 10:38:33 am »

The most abusive law enforcement officials are the generally the ones most imbedded into their communities, the City/Village Cops.
It's their job to move the "riff-raff" out of town.  The locals WANT them to beat up the "riff-raff". The locals don't CARE if there are fatalities, until it hits the news.
I hope you are not suggesting this is a racial issue. I doubt there is a community on the planet that don't have its 'riff-raff' problem. Also now I am curious if there are policing statistics for middle and upper class predominantly black communities in America.

Have you ever lived in poor or even bad hood? If so, did you think that policing was sufficient or effective?

In my experience, many people feel that police isn't doing enough and judicial system is a revolving door. Also as with anything else everyone prefer good practices but no one is willing to pay unless shit hits the fan.
Oh hey, this is actually kinda relevant to my degree! I study medieval English laws targeting vagrants (who were actually usually just poor, mobile workers). These exact laws, down to the word, were copied and pasted into American legislation. No joke, medieval Old World law.

In 1956, Caleb Foote published an account of a Philadelphian anti-vagrancy drive. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3309853?seq=4. I recommend even a cursory glance through. The history portion is very lacking, but the description of the proceedings is interesting. See, for instance, the magister's infamous words: 'You're too clean to be here. You're discharged.'

I believe the article led directly to the laws being repealed in America (?) but I'm not sure. These laws frequently saw idling black men persecuted, though on memory I don't believe Foote's study mentions race.
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Superdorf

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4317 on: February 13, 2023, 10:42:07 am »

Oh hey, this is actually kinda relevant to my degree! I study medieval English laws targeting vagrants (who were actually usually just poor, mobile workers). These exact laws, down to the word, were copied and pasted into American legislation. No joke, medieval Old World law.

In 1956, Caleb Foote published an account of a Philadelphian anti-vagrancy drive. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3309853?seq=4. I recommend even a cursory glance through. The history portion is very lacking, but the description of the proceedings is interesting. See, for instance, the magister's infamous words: 'You're too clean to be here. You're discharged.'

I believe the article led directly to the laws being repealed in America (?) but I'm not sure. These laws frequently saw idling black men persecuted, though on memory I don't believe Foote's study mentions race.

Dude, I hafta deliver a presentation on anti-homeless discrimination this Thursday
You're a lifesaver <3
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TD1

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4318 on: February 13, 2023, 11:12:28 am »

No worries! Always happy to help a fellow scholar of the vagrant subject, hehe.

In case it's in any way relevant, here is the original 1349 vagrancy law. And its edited 1351 version. The British Empire spread its terms and assumptions across the world, but removed it from its original context.

It was written directly following the Black Death (which killed around 50% of the working population), and at one point targets healthy beggars. Refusing them alms, it claims, will prompt them to profitable work.

But more modern applications/derivations of the law lack this context. We no longer have a labour shortage, quite the opposite in fact. Its application is now usually class discrimination, or enforcing a 'crime of circumstance.'
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Superdorf

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4319 on: February 13, 2023, 11:14:38 am »

Have vagrancy laws changed much since that 1956 study? I'd be curious to see more recent court material.
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