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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 277002 times)

Phmcw

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2014, 05:18:29 pm »

Le pen is nothing. She's a slighly contreversive politician, and if half of what has been said in this thread is true, not racist by Americain standarts. She's anti-immigration and traditionalist, but that's it.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2014, 05:26:06 pm »

Wow. America might be the worst first-world country I've ever seen.
See: Australia

The people are fine, the politicians in power are worse. In America, they at least TRY to act intelligently.

Well... some of them... there's a pretty large chunk that are deliberately anti-intellectual, and wear ignorance on various issues like a badge.  And this gets them re-elected.
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Sergarr

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2014, 05:30:42 pm »

The advent of anti-rationality is the worst thing that could have happened to our civilization as a whole. These people if left unchecked WILL destroy the ecosphere. And that would be the end of humanity.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2014, 05:32:24 pm »

And this is encouraged by America's cultural attitude towards criminals in general.  Politicians tend to be judged harshly for appearing "soft on crime".  People tend to immediately jump to the worst possible preconceptions whenever they hear the word "criminal".  Those harmed by police tend to get zero sympathy as soon as it's revealed that they might have been guilty of anything at any point in their lives.  It's still not uncommon for people to talk about how police who capture a drug dealer or violent criminal should just take haul them off somewhere to be immediately executed and left to rot.  When there was a mass shooting at the Los Angeles airport several months back, I heard several people in the office propose exactly this, and that was tame compared to the shit I hear anytime a child abuse or rape case makes headlines.  And being convicted of a felony might as well be a death sentence, considering all the fundamental rights you lose forever and how impossible it becomes to find a job and support yourself.

The worst is that since criminals are enemies, the mindset goes, people they like can't be criminals. It's disgusting. It leads to people advocating death for drug possession and then cheering on a person who abuses drugs because he's "on their side" and thus can't be a real criminal.

Wow. America might be the worst first-world country I've ever seen.
America does some things pretty damn well, and some things exceptionally poorly, and because of it's structure often manages to do both at the same time. Most first-world countries, and most countries in general, are pretty shit in a lot of ways, it's pretty pointless to call out one as being "the worst" - it tends to lead people to the mistaken perception that their own country is actually all that much better. Which is exactly how America has gotten into this sort of predicament, they've been using the "Wow, these guys we're opposed to are the absolute worst, aren't they?" from WWII and Germany through the cold war and the USSR up until today and the "terr'r'sts". Pakistan, Russia, Mexico and several other countries could probably even compete with the US in terms of "worst police", depending on what factors you look at. The point is, this line of thought is insidious, dangerous, and unproductive. One has to identify the actual, specific problems that country is suffering from, understand why they happen (hint: Part of why "the worst" is a silly term to use is that it boils down to a question of the worst for who, and who benefits?)

Of course, this is a bit of a tangent, but one-liners like "wow, the worst!" aren't super conducive to the thread, and the attitude behind them is a contributor to why problems like these don't actually get fixed. You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard people defend fucked up shit in the US with "Well, at least we aren't as bad as (x) when they do (y)" and it's pretty disgusting.

This even happens within countries, and on this specific issue I've heard people defend their own department's problems with "What's the big deal? We're nowhere near as bad as the LAPD!"
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 05:42:58 pm by GlyphGryph »
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2014, 05:42:26 pm »

So it's a culturally encouraged 'Us Vs Them' mentality?

(Heh, US Vs. Them.)

The culture is definitely enabling.  And I imagine there's some feedback loop to it, as well.  It pushes criminals to desperate behaviors, which further reinforce that extreme measures against them are justified.  Also the way circumstances faced by felons forces them into a life of crime reinforces the idea that a "criminal" is a fundamentally different sort of creature who can never be capable of positive contribution to society.

But I've witnessed what GlyphGryph says, also... all that harsh mentality tends to disappear when it's in relation to someone of even the slightest acquaintance.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

GlyphGryph

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2014, 05:45:35 pm »

But I've witnessed what GlyphGryph says, also... all that harsh mentality tends to disappear when it's in relation to someone of even the slightest acquaintance.

It's a critical part of the mindset, and it isn't just acquaintences but anyone they can be seen as having "allegiance" with... for example, fellow police officers who may break the law aren't criminals, because criminals are the enemy, and police officers can't be the enemy if you're a police officer, so they must not be a criminal.
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Darvi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2014, 05:46:54 pm »

(hint: Part of why "the worst" is a silly term to use is that it boils down to a question of the worst for who, and who benefits?)
It also implies that there's some sort of metric for measuring that sort of thing. Or imperial, for you silly oversea-ers.
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sneakey pete

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2014, 06:11:10 pm »

From the outside looking in (from a western perspective) the whole entire American police system just seems weeeeird. I mean, you just allow every town to make its own police force and then wonder why it doesn't work?

Simple solution would be to dissolve anything smaller than state police, use the money to boost those up and provide proper training.
Well, simple in theory.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2014, 06:15:22 pm »

From the outside looking in (from a western perspective) the whole entire American police system just seems weeeeird. I mean, you just allow every town to make its own police force and then wonder why it doesn't work?

Simple solution would be to dissolve anything smaller than state police, use the money to boost those up and provide proper training.
Well, simple in theory.

You're probably underestimating how large most states are.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Helgoland

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2014, 06:29:03 pm »

And get rid of elected civil servants. Judge neutrality is a great thing.
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sneakey pete

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2014, 06:58:25 pm »

Australia has big states, we make it work. For example Queensland has 5 districts. North, south, east and west and one for the Metro around the capital.

Standardized training means, obviously, less officers slip through the cracks, and having officers spread around would tend to result in better policing. Not to mention much more accountability which is the main thing.

I mean, look at the states, how many separate police forces do you have?

Local police, state police, FBI, Marshals, ATF, secret service... what else am I forgetting?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 07:02:25 pm by sneakey pete »
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2014, 07:41:45 pm »

I mean, look at the states, how many separate police forces do you have?

Local police, state police, FBI, Marshals, ATF, secret service... what else am I forgetting?

This is a weird cultural issue... Americans are very distrustful of the federal government exercising power,  but otherwise have an extremely authoritarian mentality.   Love excessive symbols and displays of power by any group they identify with,  and tend towards might makes right style thinking in general,  at least in my experience.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

GlyphGryph

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2014, 07:48:36 pm »

Oh, also, guys?

Ferguson police totally lied about Officer Wilson's history.

They claimed he worked there for 6 years with no incidents.

Turns out he spent his first three years in Jennings, and lost his job when the authorities completely disbanded the entire town's police department for egregious racism, violence, and incompetence, hiring a fresh new batch of officers, and Ferguson scooped him up.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

I know people also argued against me when I suggested that disbanding the police department was a terrible idea, but it works - countless towns with these sorts of problems have managed to turn around their police force by doing this. A rotten apple spoils the barrel, and you need to be willing to throw out the barrel and start over when that happens.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2014, 07:55:36 pm »

How much for a cup of police juice?
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2014, 11:56:53 am »

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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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