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Author Topic: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on  (Read 4755 times)

GavJ

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"Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« on: August 25, 2014, 05:25:22 pm »

I have 3 main interests for potential modding projects, but not a ton of free time. I am wondering what you players would enjoy the most to help me decide what to actually dive into. Not a literal poll, I care more about contentful commentary.

Option 1) Comprehensive, more challenging and realistic food and industry mods -- The goal is first and foremost making starvation a 14th century-level realistic risk, with it being a rare event for dwarves to NOT be hungry on a regular basis, and needing to devote maybe 40% of your population to agriculture as an ideal goal (meat and eggs and crops etc. all made equally more difficult, no cheating by alternate food sources). Along with much more realistic crops and climate zones of varying difficulty and style. Possibly also updating other industries (wood, metal, ceramics, glass) to have more balanced uses and more challenging and realistic production trees. More details in spoiler:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Option 2) Realistic geology engine -- Basically, a 3rd party utility that would simulate an entire world using actual plate tectonics (this happens at a coarse resolution, like 1/4 of an embark tile or something). Then when you embark at a location, the application further simulates the tile-by-tile detail of that site, and completely overwrites the entire embark map using dfhack to make it fit the realistic geology of the greater world. See spoiler for specific details of what kinds of things:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Option 3) Economics simulator -- Working out specific economic principles like supply and demand and survival versus profit goods and trade networks and markets, with an eye toward how a fully implemented economics sytem might work in DF. Then implementing this either as a proof of concept or (if dfhack can do the necessary things) as a plugin that actually makes such a system in game.

Details of this are easier to get a feel for from this thread, if anybody cares that much:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=142045.0



Thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 05:31:36 pm by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

StagnantSoul

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 05:30:04 pm »

Economics>geology>food.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 08:00:24 pm »

#1, because it could be implemented without DFHack (and therefore not be dependant on the functionality of DFHack).

Roses

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 11:06:20 pm »

#1, because for #3 Toady might eventually re-enable the economy, and for #2 I am still not sure how feasible it would be to rewrite the entire map using DFHack.
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GavJ

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 11:14:54 pm »

Quote
I am still not sure how feasible it would be to rewrite the entire map using DFHack.
Guys on IRC channel say that tiletypes in dfhack can change anything about a tile if you know how to use it. Discussion with its writer and reverse engineering should let me figure out all the libraries involved, at which point I should be able to overwrite a whole embark map just as quickly as DF writes the original embark map (couple seconds or whatever). Not sure yet if there'd be weird stability issues, but quite likely not.

(Bonus: if I do that project and figure out all the main code hooks, I can also fix the horrible horrible user interface of tiletypes to make it much more usable for testing stuff and whatever tile changes manually)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:17:18 pm by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Orange Wizard

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 11:27:40 pm »

(Bonus: if I do that project and figure out all the main code hooks, I can also fix the horrible horrible user interface of tiletypes to make it much more usable for testing stuff and whatever tile changes manually)
That would be fantastic. But the less-overpowered farming one gets my vote. It doesn't require DFHack, for one, and it significantly changes gameplay. Geology simulator would be nice to look at, but the economy has a huge chance of being irreparably broken, much like Toady's old economy.
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samanato

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 11:30:01 pm »

#1 is definitely most doable, and you can quite easily do it with raws alone.  Some of the more heavily detailed stuff might use DFHack, but it's not strictly necessary.  I do have seasonal growing times in my mod, though I've yet to work on the meat and fish preservation.  Some ideas off the top of my head:

  • Preserving meat, fish and eggs for long-term storage.  This could be done with a variety of methods. Salt is the most obvious one, though you would probably need more sources than grinding rocksalt.  The ocean has been long exploited for salt, though actually doing that would need DFHack.  Ash and lye are some other options that may be more readily available (my mod has 4 z-level on average trees and they still give ~30 logs in old forest growths!).  Century eggs and lutefisk come to mind as examples, and as a bonus they're queasy (read: dwarfy) enough to a lot of people. You can also use plant extracts such as chili peppers, possibly underground fire-berries for early-game.  Yet another option is smoke-curing.
  • More uses for animal offal.  Stomachs and bladders could be tanned into waterskins, sinews can be made into thread, and so on.  (Masterwork does this iirc)
  • Brewing reactions requiring water and possibly wood for fuel.  You'll need a reaction to provide water for the reactions (I'd use the well itself, but that needs DFHack).  Wine-making doesn't need a source of water; as balance, it might produce less, or need further resources like yeast.  Rice-wine traditionally uses koji, a mould.
  • As I've mentioned before, reducing tree heights from the default [TRUNK_HEIGHT:8] (the tallest setting which is the default...!) will nerf the availability of wood.  They never seem shorter than 3 z-levels however.
  • Expanding on that, different kinds of wood.  Shitty wood from most fruit trees, fir and suchlike would only be useful for fuel or at best boarding up in plywood (which isn't out of period surprisingly, it was known to the ancient Egyptians).  Better wood could be used for furniture, extremely hard and dense woods like ebony and kingwood would also be used to make ballistae and ammo, and flexible woods like yew used for bows.
  • Things like wheat, millet, rice and sweet potatoes shouldn't grow in a wild forest.  Setting their frequencies to [FREQUENCY:0] will make them no longer appear in the overworld, but still available to entities.  As a bonus, combined with the nerfed underground farming, this gives greater importance to outside trade if your dwarven entity hasn't access to those plants already.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:52:20 pm by samanato »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 11:52:41 pm »

Shitty wood
[REACTION_CLASS:WOOD_SHIT]?
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Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

GavJ

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 11:52:58 pm »

Yes sorry I forgot to mention preservation, of course on the list. For most plants as well as meat and other things: pickling, candying, confits, smoking, etc.
By using heat damage points at around 10,010 or so urists, I can make unpreserved food rot over the course of a week or two if stored at non-refrigerating temperatures, even inside of a food stockpile in a barrel (higher for root veggies, maybe, and this includes underground as unsafe at 47 degrees farenheit). Most types of food would also be inedible without cooking, with a few exceptions like berries, etc. Amusingly, it even works to "rot" food faster in sweltering heat! No miasma, but whatever.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

samanato

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 11:59:32 pm »

Shitty wood
[REACTION_CLASS:WOOD_SHIT]?

lol
Urist McCarpenter cancels make plywood: Need SHIT_WOOD logs.

Though in seriousness, it would draw from a new template with most functions like [ITEMS_HARD] disabled.  The hardcoded carpentry reactions might still use those logs though, it would need a workaround iirc.

By using heat damage points at around 10,010 or so urists, I can make unpreserved food rot over the course of a week or two if stored at non-refrigerating temperatures, even inside of a food stockpile in a barrel (higher for root veggies, maybe, and this includes underground as unsafe at 47 degrees farenheit)

I like this idea.  As a bonus, making food stockpiles outside in freezing biomes would be another way to preserve food!  Or for that matter, nether-cap logs would become a valuable commodity. (if you can stand the third cavern layer!!)

This might be a problem for butcher products though, which also affects live animal tissues.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 01:35:02 am by samanato »
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Meph

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2014, 03:48:48 am »

1. would be my choice. It would work as a standalone mod, but could also be dropped into the modpack putnam/peridexis are working on.

2. sounds unrealistic at best.

3. Is a planned vanilla feature, it would be a shame to do things that will be replaced.
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Minnakht

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2014, 04:34:16 am »

1 sounds fun, and since DF already has plenty of fun I'd rather not bother with 1 especially since mandatory fun that makes lots of my dwarves brown isn't really all that fun.

2 sounds interesting and out of the three options I'd pick this one.

3 doesn't sound too good.
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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2014, 08:54:08 am »

I would suggest 1 or 2, depending on whether you prefer feedback from players or modders.  As mentioned, Option 1 can be dropped into PE's Starter Pack when it starts to support mods.  The only issue is that it would be competing with a couple other "hard farming" mods.  Option 2 doesn't really affect gameplay in a perceptible way, but it could lay the foundations for some impressive geological/ecological DFHack effects (terrain-deforming weapons, blight spells, faith that literally moves mountains, etc.).  The issue here would be fewer players to help with troubleshooting things.
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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2014, 10:14:05 am »


3.


A dynamic market economy sounds just too good to be true.
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than402

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Re: "Poll" - Best modding project to work on
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2014, 10:37:36 am »

1.so,essentially dwarf fortress:very hard mode.i like it
2.if it can be done,that would be really interesting
3.nah.it's a planned feature anyway,and it might cause the same problems economy caused in older editions
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