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[Deboche]

I'd say it should be a noble if it gets implemented.

The handler, or the pigeon?

The handler, I wouldn't have the heart to harm the pigeon.

I'll also echo the "noble position" thought, with the idea that once your fortress has reached a certain level of stability & prosperity, the Outpost Liason stops coming & going with the caravan and becomes a permanent resident, requiring his own room & furniture. He keeps the bats, and is willing to use his Animal Caretaking/Training skills in other areas as well (should you require that), and also comes with some minor skills in Organizing / Record Keeping too, and will accept those official titles & duties as well, if you wish--but he won't act as your broker, due to the obvious conflict of interest.

I like this idea but I think you should be able to assign him any labor. You often see weird things in the civ screen, like Queen Farmer and General Thresher. In a population of 200 or less, realistically everyone would have to work to keep such a complex economical system as fortresses have, even the children. But it's all dependent on what further development happens in the game, I think farms need to be nerfed because a small field and one or two farmers shouldn't be enough to feed everyone.

[Blastbeard]

Why does This have to be limited to messages? Like that old joke of how embarksing works, a roc very well would be able to carry and drop a wagon of supplies at a designated poijnt on demand, and having that be a way to deliver that from the mountainhome to some remote outpost on the other side of the world would be incredible. And good luck trying to shoot down a bird the size of a jet liner just to intercept its message.

As for every flying thing smaller than a roc but larger than a pigeon, carrying capacity should be determined by size and/or a tag, maybe that one that determines how much a pack animal can carry. Naturally, an African Swallow should be able to carry more than a European Swallow. But if you get two European Swallows and tie a line between them it should come out to about the same value.

[red_kangaroo]

Talso siegers trying to snipe them, maybe this is what makes bats so useful as you can send them via the caverns if they are connected or they are trained to leave via a natural cave)

Actually, using pigeons/bats for e.g. asking the Mountainhome for a military support in case of goblin siege would be incredibly wonderful. That would also require some sort of inter-civ politics, like how well can your expedition leader flatter the liaison, or how does your duke stand with the king. Basically, export great wealth (and give a good price), do not ask much any maybe send a gift or two to important nobles and when you call, an army will come to aid you. Be either an unimportant outpost or a wealthy pain in the arse and no one will care about you being slain. Also, the Mountainhome should be able to ask a military help from you.

Of course, when you become the Mountainhome and the king arrives, you should be able to basically rule the whole dwarven empire through some nobles, liaisons, messangers and pigeons.

BTW, I really like the idea of permanent ambassadors of other civs in your fortress (at least on Mountainhome level). Bonus points for making a truce with elves, then assigning the ambassador into a royal quarters made of wood, with wooden furniture and glass windows leading into torture pits where the elven slaves from the earlier sieges still suffer. Super dwarven bonus points for assigning the demonic ambassador of goblins in the same quarters. Of course he must have noxious gas/deadly dust/very stinky farts.

[Azerty]

What about owls?

[Bumber]

What about rats? Do our messengers necessarily have to fly?

[Blastbeard]

What about rats? Do our messengers necessarily have to fly?

No, not really. Recently, criminals have used cats to smuggle drugs about, so it should be possible to train even small land animals to carry messages or small packages. Aquatic creatures might have some difficulties, though.

[Bumber]

What about rats? Do our messengers necessarily have to fly?

No, not really. Recently, criminals have used cats to smuggle drugs about, so it should be possible to train even small land animals to carry messages or small packages. Aquatic creatures might have some difficulties, though.

Penguins? Too bad there aren't any dolphins (yet.)

[Redzephyr01]

Messenger sharks used by elves would be pretty cool.

[WertyMiniBot]

Perhaps you could have a container, like some bottle, to put the paper in.

I can just see it. The king hanging out on his beach wearing, on his -*gold throne*-, when an octopus arm comes out of the water and drops the kelp laden bottle on the king's lap.

[Bumber]

Perhaps you could have a container, like some bottle, to put the paper in.

Who says it has to be written with ink on paper? You could weave messages on cloth/leather or engrave on light stone/wood objects.

[SixOfSpades]

Interception of the messages in transit would be INSANELY COOL (also siegers trying to snipe them, maybe this is what makes bats so useful as you can send them via the caverns if they are connected or they are trained to leave via a natural cave).

Of a greater concern than enemy snipers is the possibility of messenger creatures trying to fly through Evil weather, especially given the current level of the AI, which would doubtless generate an incoming pigeon right in the middle of a cloud of haunting fog. And yes, the player should be able to check all discovered caverns for off-map access to a surface cave, in much the same manner that we can check whether a Trade Depot has a wagon-pathable route. Caverns that connect with any cave that reaches the surface would be viable routes for both merchant caravans and flyers (at least as far as pathing is concerned), while those that lack such access should be ignored for both of these purposes.

I'll also echo the "noble position" thought, with the idea that once your fortress has reached a certain level of stability & prosperity, the Outpost Liason stops coming & going with the caravan and becomes a permanent resident, requiring his own room & furniture. He keeps the bats, and is willing to use his Animal Caretaking/Training skills in other areas as well (should you require that), and also comes with some minor skills in Organizing / Record Keeping too, and will accept those official titles & duties as well, if you wish--but he won't act as your broker, due to the obvious conflict of interest.

I like this idea but I think you should be able to assign him any labor. You often see weird things in the civ screen, like Queen Farmer and General Thresher. In a population of 200 or less, realistically everyone would have to work

Sure, everyone should work . . . except pompous nobles living in your city by a direct order of the monarch himself, commanded to advise and oversee all diplomatic, economic, and migratory relations between the Mountainhome and your little barony . . . sent to advise and oversee and that's it. He doesn't have to lift a damn finger if he doesn't want to. Now, you're right, any true dwarf would want to, but because this guy has a "Noble from the Mountainhome" reputation to uphold, he can't get his hands dirty. There must be no Outpost Liaison/Ditchdigger (just as I imagine the Queen/Farmer and General/Thresher positions won't last long). That's why I had him open to accepting the tasks of other nobles in the fort, and possibly other, "elite, dignified" jobs as well, like Gem Setting. Perhaps it would be best if the dwarf sent to be your fort's permanent Outpost Liaison had some appreciable amount of skill in one of these "cushy" jobs, & that particular labor turned on--and you cannot change their allowed labors, because after all, the liaison is not one of your dwarves.

Why does This have to be limited to messages? Like that old joke of how embarksing works, a roc very well would be able to carry and drop a wagon of supplies at a designated poijnt on demand, and having that be a way to deliver that from the mountainhome to some remote outpost on the other side of the world would be incredible.

Well, the game isn't called Roc Fortress. The fact that other civilizations exist, some of whom are likely at war with your own nation, is because your civ doesn't have a very obedient trained roc, willing to incendiary-bomb all other countries out of existence with magma-filled minecarts. I'd prefer to see this limited to messages. Some of those messages might call for emergency deliveries of supplies, sure, I'm all for that--but the actual goods would still have to be delivered by walking, talking sentients.

Naturally, an African Swallow should be able to carry more than a European Swallow. But if you get two European Swallows and tie a line between them it should come out to about the same value.

The flying ({copper arrow}) strikes the Carrier Swallow (Tame) in the right dorsal guiding feather, bruising the pinion!
The Carrier Swallow (Tame) loses hold of the -whip vine strand-.
The Carrier Swallow (Tame) loses hold of the (coconut).
Carrier Swallow (Tame) cancels Homing Carry: Cargo lost or destroyed.

Actually, using pigeons/bats for e.g. asking the Mountainhome for a military support in case of goblin siege would be incredibly wonderful. That would also require some sort of inter-civ politics . . . Be either an unimportant outpost or a wealthy pain in the arse and no one will care about you being slain. Also, the Mountainhome should be able to ask a military help from you.

Just so. Providing that your embark spot is close enough to your Mountainhome that an army could feasibly travel that distance in time to break the siege, this is an obvious candidate for the types of messages that could be sent. In both directions, tit for tat & all.

Bonus points for making a truce with elves, then assigning the ambassador into a royal quarters made of wood, with wooden furniture and glass windows leading into torture pits where the elven slaves from the earlier sieges still suffer.

Anti-Elven sentiments aside, the release of prisoners would almost certainly be a condition of good diplomatic relations . . . although perhaps not an absolute requirement for housing an ambassador, maybe the ambassador could be allowed to ransom a certain number of them free each year. Yes, the diplomat should be sensitive to things likely intended to deliberately give offense, so torturing them should be the best way to start a most spectacular war.

What about owls?

Yes. And hawks, falcons, and possibly seagulls. Underwater, I'd go with dolphins & sea turtles, but no fish. I think the idea of training a fish is stretching credulity a bit too far.

"Leave him alone!" said Thorin. "The thrushes are good and friendly . . . The Men of Dale used to have the trick of understanding their language, and used them for messengers to fly to the Men of the Lake and elsewhere."

"I only wish he was a raven!" said Balin.
"I thought you did not like them! You seemed very shy of them, when we came this way before."
"Those were crows! And nasty suspicious-looking creatures they were, and rude as well. You must have heard the ugly names they were calling after us. But the ravens are different. There used to be great friendship between them and the people of Thror; and they often brought us secret news, and were rewarded with such bright things as they coveted to hide in their dwellings."

Perhaps you could have a container, like some bottle, to put the paper in.

Similarly-sized bivalve shells, sealed with wax. And dwarves already make glass vials. But I wouldn't mind if the container's existence was merely implied, leaving us to simply assume that if the message and its carrier are ready to go, then the container must exist as well. And I agree, paper is not strictly required, although it does seem the easiest, fastest, and most lightweight method. (I'm discounting the possibility of parrots & other talking birds actually verbalizing the message at the receiving end, because of the time it would take to train the bird to accurately repeat that ONE specific phrase, which likely couldn't even be longer than a few seconds.)

[GavJ]

I think the idea of training a fish is stretching credulity a bit too far.

Fish can be trained. Goldfish were trained in a psychology study i read not very long ago to not only go from point A to point B, but to do so via a colored-light-indicator-based shifting maze.

A bigger problem with all the suggestions to just use any random animals is that it doesn't make any sense to capture a new animal on site and train it to go to the mountainhomes, because it doesn't know where they are... you need to have animals brought along the route at some point to learn it. I.e. you should only be able to buy them from caravans. So it would probably all be one species, because that's what the mountainhomes or whoever trades in. Possibly you could have some other options for the ones you send back to them, but for at least one direction, it would not be your choice.

Also sealife and land animals are inappropriate, since you pretty much can't go anywhere in DF in any reasonable timeframe without crossing a mixture of land and sea. Thus flight. Sea animals in particular are fairly silly given that dwarves always make their capital cities in mountains...

Animal species that do not migrate long distance or otherwise have evidence of large scale navigation abilities are also likely inappropriate at face value. For instance cats are not going to have any instinct or skills at navigating continents, even if they walked one way.

AND if it's a species that you would have to transport inside the wagon or in a cage or something, then it needs to at least have magnetoception, because inside of a wagon and cage, it wouldn't have other cues available to map out the route to itself. So while you might make a (strained) argument for some sort of migratory mammal like a reindeer or something running alongside seeing where he is being led, arguing for a rat in a visually obstructed cage rolling along way faster than it would move won't work, because it wouldn't have any way to keep track of the path.


Basically this leaves us with:
* A medium sized subset of birds and bats
* Mayyybe a handful of land animals capable of swimming rivers and moving quickly enough AND with a strong migratory/navigational sense, like perhaps reindeer. ONLY IF you're on the same island/continent as your pen pal... Even then, it's a huge stretch if the route requires extreme areas like tundra + desert + mountains all in one trip.

[SixOfSpades]

I think the idea of training a fish is stretching credulity a bit too far.

Fish can be trained. Goldfish were trained in a psychology study i read not very long ago to not only go from point A to point B, but to do so via a colored-light-indicator-based shifting maze.

I don't know about you, but I'm not putting the integrity of my fortress in the "hands" of a friggin' goldfish. A shark or ray, maybe, but even with your report of that study, I have grave doubts about the intelligence of fish, even the mostly-solitary ones. Yeah, they can be trained to blow a miniature soccer ball into a goal, but that's hardly comparable to a 100-mile migration run to a very precise location.

Also sealife and land animals are inappropriate, since you pretty much can't go anywhere in DF in any reasonable timeframe without crossing a mixture of land and sea. Thus flight. Sea animals in particular are fairly silly given that dwarves always make their capital cities in mountains...

Generally correct, but since you can embark nearly anywhere (even on a coastline), and your fort can become the Mountainhome, we must assume that other, non-mountain forts in your civilization might also have become the Mountainhome. And if we're dealing with other races & not just dwarves, they too might live in unexpected terrain. A fort might theoretically have good relations with a civilization of merfolk. You can still send them bird messengers, but only if that bird is a penguin.

. . . you need to have animals brought along the route at some point to learn it. I.e. you should only be able to buy them from caravans. . . . Possibly you could have some other options for the ones you send back to them, but for at least one direction, it would not be your choice.

BIG yes. Although I do have some thoughts: Maybe you won't have to *buy* the Mountainhome's messengers, the liaison might *insist* that you take them, sending regular reports is one of your duties as part of the realm, etc. In the same way, the liaison might automatically *seize* the creatures that you've already trained to home back to your fort (or at least [total # of trained messengers] / [# of civs with whom you're exchanging messages]).

Mayyybe a handful of land animals capable of swimming rivers and moving quickly enough AND with a strong migratory/navigational sense, like perhaps reindeer.

I'd make it even a bit more specific, in that animals that almost always migrate in herds / flocks / schools are less well suited for acting alone. For every starling that somehow forgets one leg of a migration, there are a hundred others right with him that remember that part just fine. But a single starling flying solo? Maybe, maybe not. Also, a single reindeer on a long & tiring journey is just about guaranteed to be targeted by every single good-sized predator (and hunter) along the way.


In other thoughts, why the HECK has it taken us this long to consider dogs & wolves? They can cover long distances quickly, are generally safe from most predators, are comfortable acting alone, can handle a reasonably broad range of terrain (including small rivers), and most importantly, they're highly intelligent--among the few animals smart enough to be trained to make round-trip journeys. And we *already have* trained dogs!

[GavJ]

Maybe you won't have to *buy* the Mountainhome's messengers, the liaison might *insist* that you take them, sending regular reports is one of your duties as part of the realm, etc. In the same way, the liaison might automatically *seize* the creatures that you've already trained to home back to your fort (or at least [total # of trained messengers] / [# of civs with whom you're exchanging messages]).

True.

Losing them/not checking in could even be considered similar to stealing caravan stuff or letting liasons die, though with a lesser weighting.

animals that almost always migrate in herds / flocks / schools are less well suited for acting alone.

You mean like pigeons? 
I don't think this is a big deal. The issue of prey animals (which is usually what herds are) being more juicy looking alone, is an issue though. Not a game breaker, since carrier pigeons don't exactly get eaten by hawks 80% of the time or anything, but it's an issue. a species-specific random number generator on getting eaten wouldn't be unreasonable. For instance, built into whatever RAW tag there is for messenger-ness.

dogs & wolves

Dunno how well they navigate. However, yes, this is obviously a lot better than reindeer. Still super slow compared to birds (50 mph versus like, 5?)

[red_kangaroo]

I'm discounting the possibility of parrots & other talking birds actually verbalizing the message at the receiving end, because of the time it would take to train the bird to accurately repeat that ONE specific phrase, which likely couldn't even be longer than a few seconds.

Well, as seen both in your Tolkien samples and here (the very first paragraph), you could use verbal messages if you knew the "language" of the animal in question. Even though it's not realistic, DF is a fantasy game after all.

The same goes with the problem about training animal messangers - maybe you could have both the normal pigeons/bats who only carry a piece of paper from their nest to the feeding place; and more intelligent animal messangers, trained most likely by a druid. (Yay for dwarven druids!)

[/quote author=SixOfSpades link=topic=143014.msg5624080#msg5624080 date=1409558176]