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[0996395]

What is it? How do you do it? Why do you do it? What are the pros and cons? Do you think it takes the fun out of the game?

[BlackFlyme]

Savescumming is when you quit a game and reload an older save. Typically used to avoid a game-over.

For example, saving when a siege arrives just in case you lose. Or saving in Adventure Mode before entering a megabeast's lair just in case it eats you.

Whether it takes the fun out of the game or not would depend on personal preference. It could also depend on the situation that caused the failure as well.

[GavJ]

I can't stand any games that don't let you save. That's already how life works the other 23 hours of the day. Although it mildly annoys me that this isn't a built in feature in DF, it's so easy to do anyway that it's not a big deal.

Also, in addition to wanting to maybe play out risky situations more than once, I use it a lot of the time for research/Science(!), because starting back over at a save point = controlled experimental conditions.

[salithus]

I can't stand any games that don't let you save. That's already how life works the other 23 hours of the day. Although it mildly annoys me that this isn't a built in feature in DF, it's so easy to do anyway that it's not a big deal.

Also, in addition to wanting to maybe play out risky situations more than once, I use it a lot of the time for research/Science(!), because starting back over at a save point = controlled experimental conditions.

Agreed esp on the science. Most of my early time in DF was playing the same exact embark over and over and getting a feel for different aspects - farming, crafting, metal working, etc, until I felt comfortable enough to take on invaders, then trying and trying and trying again until I got the hang of that.

[Dwimenor]

I can't stand any games that don't let you save. That's already how life works the other 23 hours of the day. Although it mildly annoys me that this isn't a built in feature in DF, it's so easy to do anyway that it's not a big deal.

DF is still very forgiving about that, all you have to do is copy region folder.
Try that in Nethack, which stores inode number in save file. Without hexeditor you won't be able to load copied save;)

[mnjiman]

Giving players the ability to reload a saved game would take a lot away from the game. Making a mistake and learning from those mistakes is apart of makes Dwarf Fortress... Dwarf Fortress. Stories coming from errors and learning from your mistakes and how you deal with those mistakes. You could easily reply "Let people decide that path if that want too" but heres the thing: A lot of people don't realize the fun involved from making mistakes. Conflict is full of fear, error is to human but no one likes it. This would be something that would take a lot of story potential away from the game.

Here is a list of items that would not be apart of what makes Dwarf Fortress awesome if saving and loading was a feature: Accidentally flooding your fortress, sending an unprepared army to their deaths,  accidentally killing your King by accidentally raising the bridge while he was on it and slamming him into a wall, Vampires as a feature, and honestly a lot of the game features.

Saving and Loading is also against the very foundations of what roguelikes are, what dwarf fortress is. Savescumming is possible and if you really care so much about having a perfect fortress without mistakes, just continue doing it. Suggesting that the game should be able to save and load? A crime against the very concept of Dwarf Fortress.

[GavJ]

Giving players the ability to reload a saved game would take a lot away from the game. Making a mistake and learning from those mistakes is apart of makes Dwarf Fortress... Dwarf Fortress. Stories coming from errors and learning from your mistakes and how you deal with those mistakes. You could easily reply "Let people decide that path if that want too" but heres the thing: A lot of people don't realize the fun involved from making mistakes. Conflict is full of fear, error is to human but no one likes it. This would be something that would take a lot of story potential away from the game.

Here is a list of items that would not be apart of what makes Dwarf Fortress awesome if saving and loading was a feature: Accidentally flooding your fortress, sending an unprepared army to their deaths,  accidentally killing your King by accidentally raising the bridge while he was on it and slamming him into a wall, Vampires as a feature, and honestly a lot of the game features.

Saving and Loading is also against the very foundations of what roguelikes are, what dwarf fortress is. Savescumming is possible and if you really care so much about having a perfect fortress without mistakes, just continue doing it. Suggesting that the game should be able to save and load? A crime against the very concept of Dwarf Fortress.

So your argument is "I'm correct, and if you disagree you must simply not yet realize that I am correct."

Convincing stuff.

Your entire list of things you claim wouldn't happen with save reloading is incorrect -- you'd still flood your fortress and kill your king in a bridge and all of that stuff. Nothing about having a save file on hand (or using it) prevents such things from happening OR you learning from them OR telling stories about them... it's simply a matter of experiencing it, learning from it, gaining a story to tell, BUT THEN reloading your save. Okay, so what?

I also disagree that something merely happening to be in the game makes it "a part of the whole concept of the game." Where are you concluding that from? I don't see anything else about the game other than the mere lack of a menu option that implies savescumming is contrary to its "spirit" or "core concept," versus just some arbitrary small decision Toady made at some point.

[Detharon]

Giving players the ability to reload a saved game would take a lot away from the game. Making a mistake and learning from those mistakes is apart of makes Dwarf Fortress... Dwarf Fortress. Stories coming from errors and learning from your mistakes and how you deal with those mistakes. You could easily reply "Let people decide that path if that want too" but heres the thing: A lot of people don't realize the fun involved from making mistakes. Conflict is full of fear, error is to human but no one likes it. This would be something that would take a lot of story potential away from the game.

Here is a list of items that would not be apart of what makes Dwarf Fortress awesome if saving and loading was a feature: Accidentally flooding your fortress, sending an unprepared army to their deaths,  accidentally killing your King by accidentally raising the bridge while he was on it and slamming him into a wall, Vampires as a feature, and honestly a lot of the game features.

Saving and Loading is also against the very foundations of what roguelikes are, what dwarf fortress is. Savescumming is possible and if you really care so much about having a perfect fortress without mistakes, just continue doing it. Suggesting that the game should be able to save and load? A crime against the very concept of Dwarf Fortress.

Dwarf Fortress is unique in the freedom of choice it gives. Almost anything can be adjusted to satisfy player's whim, whether by numerous settings options or mods. In regard to this concept, I don't think it's fair to scold someone for the way he wants to play DF, even if for you it makes no sense. Paraphrasing, suggesting that there's the-only-right-way to play is a crime against the very concept of Dwarf Fortress.

Having the option to save/load at any time wouldn't change your game experience at all, since you may simply refrain from loading previous saves as you do now, so it wouldn't take anything away from the game. After all, savescumming is possible even now. It would just make life easier for anyone who wishes to play that way.

[stickadtroja]

i dont think it was "some arbitrary small decision", after all its been a core point of rougelike game design for like 20 years.
i also agree with mnjiman. adding a feature changes a lot of the game, even though its optional to use it. if i have access to a feature, im going to assume the game design incorporates it, and therefore feel inclined to make use of it.

i think its obvious that toady intended the game to be played without it. and therefore i assume that many of the design desicions are based on that. to make use of it, is just like cheating in any other game; you rob yourself of the experience the creator of the game intended. if you think its more fun to play it like that, go ahead, but to state that you want it in the game as a feature, is being ignorant of what the developer is trying to achive.
you might aswell suggest that all fps games comes with god mode, infite lives and run through walls in the options meny. 

[GavJ]

I'm sorry if there was confusion here, but to specify, I am talking about fortress mode in particular. If you want permadeath in ADVENTURE mode, knock yourself out, I couldn't care less. I never play it and have no opinion.

Fortress mode though is clearly not a roguelike, though, so it is not beholden to "core principles of roguelikes"

[0996395]

I didn't mean to start an argument, merely a discussion.

Here's where I'm at: It was ingrained into me when I started this game that 'losing is fun' and I thought that was a sweet gaming philosophy. Even if you're defeated horribly, (like in fortress if you flood your place in year 1 or adventurer where you get your head kicked in by benevolent wildlife) you're still having fun. In most of the other games I play, losing is frustrating, but not this one. In this game I've found losing (and losing here means permadeath) to be educational and motivational and I think that's special. So as for myself I don't savescum, but that's not to say that I never will.

On the other hand, this game also offers a ton of customization and the ability to play it in any way that you want to. So if someone wants to savescum for their enjoyment, then to each their own. I also find it insightful that it can be used for !SCIENCE! and learning more about the wonderful game. If anybody wants to do it then I'll be the last person to stand in their way.

[mnjiman]

Giving players the ability to reload a saved game would take a lot away from the game. Making a mistake and learning from those mistakes is apart of makes Dwarf Fortress... Dwarf Fortress. Stories coming from errors and learning from your mistakes and how you deal with those mistakes. You could easily reply "Let people decide that path if that want too" but heres the thing: A lot of people don't realize the fun involved from making mistakes. Conflict is full of fear, error is to human but no one likes it. This would be something that would take a lot of story potential away from the game.

Here is a list of items that would not be apart of what makes Dwarf Fortress awesome if saving and loading was a feature: Accidentally flooding your fortress, sending an unprepared army to their deaths,  accidentally killing your King by accidentally raising the bridge while he was on it and slamming him into a wall, Vampires as a feature, and honestly a lot of the game features.

Saving and Loading is also against the very foundations of what roguelikes are, what dwarf fortress is. Savescumming is possible and if you really care so much about having a perfect fortress without mistakes, just continue doing it. Suggesting that the game should be able to save and load? A crime against the very concept of Dwarf Fortress.

So your argument is "I'm correct, and if you disagree you must simply not yet realize that I am correct."

Convincing stuff.

Your entire list of things you claim wouldn't happen with save reloading is incorrect -- you'd still flood your fortress and kill your king in a bridge and all of that stuff. Nothing about having a save file on hand (or using it) prevents such things from happening OR you learning from them OR telling stories about them... it's simply a matter of experiencing it, learning from it, gaining a story to tell, BUT THEN reloading your save. Okay, so what?

I also disagree that something merely happening to be in the game makes it "a part of the whole concept of the game." Where are you concluding that from? I don't see anything else about the game other than the mere lack of a menu option that implies savescumming is contrary to its "spirit" or "core concept," versus just some arbitrary small decision Toady made at some point.

Um, I never said anything of the sort. You just twisted my words and made it seem like I said something I clearly did not. GL making suggestions with these types of replies.

[GavJ]

You could easily reply "Let people decide that path if that want too" but heres the thing: A lot of people don't realize the fun involved from making mistakes.

^
I.e. instead of acknowledging that people have fun in ways different than you and that this is a legitimate reality, you are suggesting that people who decide that they want to be able to reload saves simply don't realize that they are wrong.

This is just a bad argument. If the player is more than like 5 years old, they know damn well whether they want to reload saves or not, and yes, they also know whether they're going to have more or less fun doing so.

You do not know better than them about their preferences on such a simple concept that spans across nearly all video games ever and that they're had a lifetime of experience with. Simple as that. It is pretty obnoxiously patronizing to suggest otherwise.

______________________________________

The "It helps you learn" part of your earlier post is a whole different argument that I wasn't responding to. That one's not obnoxious, and would be a good point, but I happen to think it is just incorrect. Because why would permadeath help you learn any faster?

If anything, it would SLOW your learning. Because if you can reload saves, then you still learn that you did something wrong when your fortress dies, but then you can reload and try other things until you figure out what works! It is in fact highly efficient for learning.

Whereas if you have permadeath, you have to start back from scratch, and you don't get another chance to try out what to do in the original situation until hours later...

[Dirst]

This is not a new problem.

"The most widely shared thing in the world is good sense, for everyone thinks he is so well provided with it that even those who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else do not usually desire to have more good sense than they have. In this matter it is not likely that everyone is wrong.  But this is rather a testimony to the fact that the power of judging well and distinguishing what is true from what is false, which is really what we call good sense or reason, is naturally equal in all men, and thus the diversity of our opinions does not arise because some people are more reasonable than others, but only because we conduct our thoughts by different routes and do not consider the same things."

--Renι Descartes, 1637

[GavJ]

Dirst, my argument is not that people are amazingly good at hypothetical introspection.  My argument is that most gamers (especially ones hardcore enough to be interested in DF) already have tons and tons of direct experience with both permadeath games and reload games. Both have been around for decades.

They don't need to apply common sense to guess anything, or to have any knowledge of game design or psychology, etc. to make predictions. They can simply draw from extensive banks of personal direct experience about which type of game was in fact fun for them and which wasn't.

The only requirement is not having amnesia.