Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 16

Author Topic: Melee Combat  (Read 13945 times)

DJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #180 on: September 16, 2014, 06:33:21 am »

Yeah, shield > second weapon.
Logged
Urist, President has immigrated to your fortress!
Urist, President mandates the Dwarven Bill of Rights.

Cue magma.
Ah, the Magma Carta...

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #181 on: September 16, 2014, 12:54:59 pm »

The right term would be "very stuational".
Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

EnigmaticHat

  • Bay Watcher
  • I vibrate, I die, I vibrate again
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2014, 12:58:50 pm »

Is it really though?  Because I have a hard time thinking of a situation where dual wielding would be the MOST appropriate response.  Or even high on the list.
Logged
"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

Arx

  • Bay Watcher
  • Iron within, iron without.
    • View Profile
    • Art!
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2014, 01:41:39 pm »

I remember seeing somewhere that in the SCA two handaxes can work quite well if you're in a shield wall position, because the axes can be used to haul shields upwards and, if you're fast enough, to bat arrows away.
Logged

I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
I'm gonna fight for what's right / Today I'm speaking my mind
And if it kills me tonight / I will be ready to die.

Mel lives again! Fight monsters; fight crime; fight compound interest...

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #184 on: September 16, 2014, 01:44:18 pm »

It depend. One on one with light weapons and no armor, 2 are better than one. "main gauches" literally "left hands" are parrying daggers that are made for this express purpose.

In larp 2 swords is pretty much always better than one, sicne you just have to touch with them (no strenght, edge control or point control required).
Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #185 on: September 16, 2014, 02:07:52 pm »

Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #186 on: September 16, 2014, 07:22:36 pm »

I have a hard time thinking of a situation where dual wielding would be the MOST appropriate response.

Really? I can think of lots:

1) Any one-on-one engagement where you've you've done more training in it than the alternatives.

2) Any situation where you're sufficiently trained in dual wielding, and carrying a shield is impractical due to size, weight, concealability, legality, finance and supply conditions, social custom, etc. For example, carrying a pair of knives is far more realistic in the vast majority of urban environments than carrying a sword and a shield. A ninja is not going to be carrying a body-sized shield on his stealth missions. A renaissance era gentleman can reasonably carry a parrying dagger into town. He's probably not going lug a tower shield around. He could carry a buckler, but if he knows how to use it, an offhand dagger can not only be used to parry, but also to riposte.

3) Some specific weapons intended for specific applications. For example, both sai and hookswords have hooking prongs for which there are specific techniques intended to lock up your opponent's weapon while you attack him with the other.

4) Many short weapons exist that are pretty much always better to use in pairs. If you have brass knuckles, there are very few situations where it wouldn't be better to have two. Or consider sai and tonfa, for which a lot of fighting techniques exist that aren't really "weapon techniques" so much as empty handed fighting techniques but that are done with the weapons placed along your arm to act as forearm armor plus a punch range extender. You're pretty much always going to be better off with two of them than only one.

5) Some specific situations due to cultural and legal conditions. As mentioned above, for example, several Okinawan weapons are traditionally used in pairs. If you're an Okinawan peasant, you're legally prohibited from carrying a weapon. But you can legally carry farming tools that can be used as weapons. And some of them are simply better used in pairs. Again, sai being the best example. There's pretty much no situation where it's better to have only one.

6) Some situations where victory is hopeless, but you want to damage your opponent before you lose. For example, a peasant with kama attacked by a samurai is pretty much going to die. But if he has two kama he's far more likely to get in a stab or two before he does than if he only has one. Or, imagine facing off solo against the Mongolian hoard. Would you rather have one pistol, or two?

....and while we're at it, given the nature of this thread...

7) Any situation where you're not fighting in a real life army for your real life life, but rather you're engaging in non-lethal sport combat and aesthetics is important to you. For example, imaging you're a young adult in a modern technological society that occasionally engages in simulated combat for fun. And imagine that you want to dual wield for sheer awesomeness value. In such a hypothetical case, it's probable that dual wielding and having fun doing it would be better than using a single weapon with or without a shield and not have fun doing it.





tl'dr: shields are good for stopping arrows, but not all combat situations involve arrows. Dual wielding is generally inappropriate for army-scale engagements, but not all combat is army-scale engagement. Dual wielding generally takes a lot of training time to become proficient, so if you're taking your 10,000 conscripts to war next month, teaching them to dual wield is a bad idea. But if you're a rich dude with time, concerned about having a couple honor duels in your lifetime, you might be better off spending the time. And not everyone in every country over every period of time always has the option of choosing any weapon they want. There are cultural conditions and time periods where dual wielding has been more relevant than others.



mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #187 on: September 16, 2014, 07:39:30 pm »

Or, imagine facing off solo against the Mongolian hoard. Would you rather have one pistol, or two?

I think ideally you have a bag in each hand so you can pack up as much as possible.  I'm assuming backpacks aren't allowed?

Dual wielding guns just seems wildly impracticable to me but it seems like the most logical thing with any short melee weapon knife sized.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Parsely

  • Bay Watcher
  • She/her, they/them
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #188 on: September 16, 2014, 07:44:05 pm »

I think dual-wielding pistols isn't that impractical, as long as you're not trying to aim both at the same time. But you're definitely going to hit a lot more things shooting one gun with both hands.

Zrk2

  • Bay Watcher
  • Emperor of the Damned
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #189 on: September 16, 2014, 08:50:02 pm »

I think dual-wielding pistols isn't that impractical, as long as you're not trying to aim both at the same time. But you're definitely going to hit a lot more things shooting one gun with both hands.

Also, shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.
Logged
He's just keeping up with the Cardassians.

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #190 on: September 16, 2014, 08:58:09 pm »

I think dual-wielding pistols isn't that impractical, as long as you're not trying to aim both at the same time. But you're definitely going to hit a lot more things shooting one gun with both hands.

Also, shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.

You make a mistake there my friend.  You forget about the magic that is called shotguns.  Pick one up and you are a marksman.  Doesn't matter if you are out of practice, shooting with the wrong hand or have the shakes.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Parsely

  • Bay Watcher
  • She/her, they/them
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #191 on: September 16, 2014, 09:03:18 pm »

Pick one up and you are a marksman.
That's a misconception perpetuated by video games. The spread on a shotgun that isn't sawn-off is going to be super tight up until about 30 or 40 meters, depending on the type of choke.

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #192 on: September 16, 2014, 09:07:08 pm »

No that's my personal bias from use.  I love shotguns.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #193 on: September 16, 2014, 09:21:15 pm »

when you parry you have to avoid parrying with the edge of your blade,
else the blade's edge will become useless fast

1) Not all offhand weapons have blades. Sai, tonfa and eskrima sticks for example, have no blade to be damaged.
2) Offhand weapons are routinely not slashing weapons. Some are, yes. But if your parrying dagger gets nicked, that's not going to be a problem when you stab someone with it.
3) Even if you are using a slashing weapon like Chinese butterfly knives, a bladed weapon repeatedly struck by a bladed weapon does not dull. It becomes serrated. That does not make it useless.



Also, shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.

Depends. What sort of scenario are we talking about?

If you're talking going out to the firing range and offhand shooting a pistol into a target at 30 yards...yeah, that's going to be tough. If we imagine combat taking place inside an office or home, where distance to target is unlikely to be more than 15-20 feet at most, I think offhand firing is realistic. If we're talking a zombie apocalypse, or the previously mentioned "soloing the Mongolian horde" scenario, with potentially dozens of targets all at close range...yeah, I absolutely would want the second weapon.



shooting with any precision whatsoever with your non-dominant hand is basically impossible.
You forget about the magic that is called shotguns.  Pick one up and you are a marksman.  Doesn't matter if you are out of practice, shooting with the wrong hand or have the shakes.

I've never fired a shotgun with one hand, but I think if I saw somebody dual wielding a pair of sawed-off shotguns...I'd avoid that guy regardless of my estimates of his chances of hitting me.

Footkerchief

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Juffo-Wup is strong in this place.
    • View Profile
Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #194 on: September 16, 2014, 10:02:29 pm »

Also, handguns have existed for about 500 years, and only in the last 100 have they become easy to reload.  Before then, having twice as many guns meant twice as many ready-to-use bullets.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 16