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Author Topic: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.  (Read 5673 times)

Meph

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2014, 04:02:37 am »

Why not have them use silver directly then? That way you can either use silver as weapon/armor material, which is not that great, or you can refine it to moonsilver againt EVIL, or you can refine it to mithril. A bit like iron to steel, just more expensive.

I dont know about new metals, they always clog up menus. I would certainly like to see heavy use of woods for armors and weapons, since we already have ironbark and steeloak, but I cant think of any exclusively elven fantasy metals, besides the mention silvery stuff.

Silmarils, no idea. You have to wait for Smake ;)
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IndigoFenix

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2014, 06:40:23 am »

Idea for a tree shaping system:

Instead of using logs, use tree seeds to produce a shapable sapling tool made from the seed's tree type's wood (in df2014 all trees have seeds, and you can reference the wood type from the seed).. The sapling can then be grown directly into the required item.  Dfhack can add the grown tag to items produced this way.

I don't think elves should ever use logs for anything.  They shouldn't even have access to carpentry related labors, everything should be done by tree singing.

smakemupagus

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2014, 08:01:02 am »

Not sold on pistols. Warhammer [eldar?] have them, yes, but the elves here are not eldar. Drow come from D&D, they dont have pistols either. Daggers, scimitars, bows only.

I'm not a huge D&D guy but I got the adamantine reference and hand crossbows, i.e. pistol crossbows as masterwork gnomes call them, from the monster manual actually ^^
link

"A drow using one of the hand crossbows for which their race is well-known."
Hand Crossbow (Standard; At-will) ♦ Poison, Weapon
Ranged 10/20; +30 vs AC; 3d8 + 9 poison damage.

Aside question, what is adamantine in D&D?  is it different/more common or otherwise more elfy than our MDF bluestone?

« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 08:21:42 am by smakemupagus »
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than402

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2014, 08:42:14 am »

it's a ridiculously hard metal that sunders other weapons and objects easily when used on a weapon,and absorbs some damage when used on armor.unlike DF adamantine,it's a bit more common(but still a luxury for the average Joe of a typical campaign world),it is not blue,and is quite heavy.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Adamantine
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 08:43:51 am by than402 »
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IndigoFenix

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2014, 08:58:43 am »

Why not have them use silver directly then? That way you can either use silver as weapon/armor material, which is not that great, or you can refine it to moonsilver againt EVIL, or you can refine it to mithril. A bit like iron to steel, just more expensive.

I dont know about new metals, they always clog up menus. I would certainly like to see heavy use of woods for armors and weapons, since we already have ironbark and steeloak, but I cant think of any exclusively elven fantasy metals, besides the mention silvery stuff.

I was just trying to keep things close to the original source:

Quote from: Gandalf
Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim.

Presumably it's rather soft in its native state, the method of hardening it being a trick of the dwarves - and you've been looking for ideas for how to give the dwarves more metalworking talents than other races, so that fits.  Elves used mithril when they could get it, but mostly for jewelry and crafts rather than armor or weapons.  As for ithildin ('starmoon', the shiny alloy associated with elves), it was often used as a symbol of the friendship between the two races (for instance, the tree-decorated door of Moria), since the elves required mithril to make it, but mithril itself was mined by the dwarves, which is one of the reasons why it isn't readily available anymore.  It isn't explicitly stated to be hazardous to evil creatures, but it wouldn't be too out of character if it was, given the nature of elvish magic.

At any rate, mithril isn't said to be related to silver except in color, so turning silver into mithril doesn't make sense.

Actually...if you don't want to add more metals (well, just one, really - hardened mithril), maybe the dwarves could produce adamantine from native mithril?  Dwarf Fortress' adamantine is basically LOTR hardened mithril with a different name, after all (the original adamantine, as in the doors holding back the Titans in Greek mythology, is said to be extremely heavy).  Then you don't have to add any new metals - just make regular mithril soft, let elves produce weak but special-effect weapons from it, and give dwarves an extra, less hazardous adamantine source.

lightstar

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 10:00:29 am »

Some ideas:

1. To make elves more elfy give them access to more stuff from woods:
A. greenhouses where food can be easily grown (already in the lists of buildings by Meph)
B. There should be some animals for elves only - give them good control over those
C. Give them good ranged weapons - elves are supposed to be good at bows
D. Elves are also supposed to be good at magic - but lets not take them the gnomes way
F. Give even good elves access to poison, and possibly even war spiders. I like the idea of war spiders..... these are full grown, mounted, spiders with a poison attack (Evil elves can have access to more things......)
G. Give them the ability to "grow" trees where they like in 7 days time:  can be used to create walls for defense.
H. High level of cave-adapt
I. Low mining skills
J. Not good with blunt weapons
K. Can work with and create mithril - but not with other metals. Mithril is very good for them.
L. Good at creating cloth - light and strong
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Nelia Hawk

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2014, 07:59:12 pm »

just a random idea about building/branches/trunk/tree/age/growth/nonsense, that in the end is totally pointless and too "mechanical" and "restrictive" etc... oh well... but maybe someone gets some ideas from the idea or so...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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snowhusky5

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2014, 08:45:32 pm »

That sounds pretty damn interesting (and hard to code), but it would certainly solve the uniqueness problem. I think the older the tree pylons get, the larger range and/or more advanced stuff they can build. It would be similar to research, but easier to lose it if something destroys your tree pylon. Although you could have more than one, of course. Autobuilding (growing) walls/floors/stairs/constructions sounds amazing as well. They would be basically the only race to build significantly above the ground as opposed to under it. Which makes sense for elves. If centralized pylons sound bad, then just constructions that slowly grow from the ground and adjacent other constructions would be reeeeal cool. Basically designing your own megatrees (you could even recreate the tree from Avatar, hehe).
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Meph

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2014, 08:50:52 pm »

Roses upgradebuilding script allows changing workshops with time. It could simulate buildings that slowly grow.

Another idea would be seasonal workshops. Treant Moot / Fairy Ring only work in Spring or Summer, but not in Autumn or Winter.

Another idea would be that you get 1 product in spring, 2 products in summer, 1 product in autumn and 0 in winter. Essentially everything shuts down in winter, but everything is twice as efficient in summer.
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Nevets_

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2014, 11:05:05 am »

I think a great idea for elves would be to adapt the gnomish druid/nature system, with your score going down whenever you cut down a tree or mine a tile.  That way you could still allow some limited mining to find metals and some woodcutting to make roads for caravans or clearings for buildings but large scale human/dwarven type exploitation is off the table.
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slay_mithos

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2014, 11:59:38 am »

I don't know about that, because it would mean that it would be very hard to acquire vast amount of materials that are required for any above ground buildings.

Even the current humans have a hard time getting basic rooms and a wall around the base, with the 8 blocks per stone boulder.

If you are basically penalized by getting materials normally, then you would need a way to get a whole lot of wood easily through other ways, which could also be seen as a balance breaker later on, unless you make a special material with 0 value (to prevent wealth from nearly nothing).
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Nevets_

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2014, 04:53:45 pm »

I was thinking the chopping/mining penalty would be a complement to the shrine/etc. buildings talked about earlier in the thread that let you create materials from seeds/etc.  The way I see an elven race working in MDF would be as a type of hunter / gatherer society that does it's best to avoid altering the land or the natural order of things.  Most resources would come from hunting/trapping and harvesting wild plants.  I don't think DF elves are vegetarians, are they?

Rather than farms they would have seed shrines that would spawn wild plants in the vicinity, and maybe a dfhack integrated reaction that designated all plants in the vicinity for harvest?  Wood shrines would spawn 'overgrowth' plants around them, you would harvest the ones you didn't want and run the spawn reaction again which would upgrade the unharvested overgrowth plants with trees.  Running the reaction a third time would upgrade the trees into greattrees: 2x2 solid wooden tiles 2 z levels high with random 'bough' floor tiles around the top of the second tier.  So you could build a line of the shrines and keep running the reactions (pruning new overgrowth in between) until the trees were thick enough to be your city wall, and if you only pruned the near side of the wall, you'd have an organic looking wall from the outside.  Harvested overgrowth could be woven in a thatchery type workshop into cheap building materials.  Earth shrines could run a reaction that spawns boulders on nearby pebble and boulder tiles to reduce or remove the need for mining to make building materials. 

They wouldn't need many buildings if you removed negative thoughts from sleeping on the ground/under the stars and eating without a dining room (leave in positive thoughts for having a nice bedroom / eating in a nice dining room to encourage eventually building those).  If you go even further with the Wood shrine idea you could have an Avatar/LotR style Home Tree / Caras Galadhon by making an 'enlarge great tree' reaction that adds an extra level to the top of any great trees in the vicinity and adds even more floor boughs, so with a few shrines you could make a giant interconnected multi tree 10 z levels tall, filing in any gaps in the boughs with floors constructed from woven overgrowth.
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Meph

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2014, 06:45:53 pm »

The problem is that furniture must be inside, and elves need furniture, and inside means a roof and a roof means a wall. It takes lots of time and resources to simply make some beds and tables for them.
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mate888

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2014, 07:12:50 pm »

I think that elves, as of Toady's canon, should be able to recive animalmen (not kobolds nor cave animalmen though) as fishermen and hunters or gatherers on their forest retreats.
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than402

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Re: ☼Elves☼: The start of a project.
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2014, 03:00:01 am »

I think that elves, as of Toady's canon, should be able to recive animalmen (not kobolds nor cave animalmen though) as fishermen and hunters or gatherers on their forest retreats.

that would be nice,but it's very clumsy both to mod and to manage.you'd have to create a different elven caste for each animal man out there,otherwise even if you receive them,they will only be able to fish,if i remember correctly.and then you must add them POP_RATIO:1 and a sterilization interaction(like the monk from the human mode),or else you'll have a dingo man and an elven woman giving birth to twin elves.

and unless there is a way to apply a template through a reaction,making the interactions to create them from animals would be a pain to write.that would mean the most practical way(that i know of) would involve making an interaction with a different transformation syndrome for every animal man out there(except for the ones based on sea life and vermin,of course).not practical at all.
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