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[Art]

So I have been doing some testing in Arena, and it seems like war hammers are strictly better than maces.

Maces have twice the mass, twice the contact area and the same velocity as hammers.

I am wondering what niche was intended for maces vs war hammers.

The smaller contact area of war hammers seems to imply they are meant for armor penetration. However, after testing they clearly do more damage even to unarmored targets. This is probably due to being able to put more pressure on a smaller point, thereby breaking more bones.

So what changes can we make to maces so that they may have a niche, without turning them into a clone of warhammers?

Ideas are welcome.

[StagnantSoul]

This should go in modding, but ohwell. A higher velocity might help them pulp even more often, when fighting undead, mace>war hammer. So they are useful in evil biomes.

[Art]

Apologies. If a mod can move that would be great.

I could, let's say, double their velocity and see how that affects my tests. Maces could be good against unarmored foes.

With base stats, about 50% of unarmored hammerdwarves survive tests over macedwarfs.

Would increasing their velocity affect their deflection rate? They could be a more defensive weapon.

[StagnantSoul]

It may, if you double the velocity, their slow attacks will strike as fast as a war hammers normal strike, so you could give the enemy less time to react.

[Bumber]

Apologies. If a mod can move that would be great.

There's a "Move Topic" button at the bottom left of the page.

[Quartz_Mace]

In real life, a flanged mace has the ability to hit more easily from different angles, making it easier to hit faster at odd angles and connect every time. I think that would make them more realistic and useful. As far as how to mod it, I have no clue.

[Chevaleresse]

It could be done with changing ATTACK:PREPARE_AND_RECOVER to give them a faster attack speed, but all of the ones in-game are all 3 iirc.

[☼!!Troll Fur Sock!!☼]

Actually, if I understand the raws correctly, this is what Toady means by maces:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

While by a warhammer he means a bit more pointy-ended one.
The closes thing to the winged mace we all have in mind is the morningstar... Not really winged, but works on the same premise. And is not produceable in fortress mode.

[StagnantSoul]

I believe he means basically a skinny handled, large headed club. That definitely is a war hammer that guy's holding.

[Art]

Apologies. If a mod can move that would be great.

There's a "Move Topic" button at the bottom left of the page.

Done.

I might try some testing tomorrow. I would like to find a balance where maces are better in some situations, and hammers in others.

[Aranador]

I >think< maces are better against 'soft' undead, as you are not worried about penetration or painful blows, but straight up mashing them.  However I seldom play with undead - and often play with morning stars added, so I have little real evidence.

[scamtank]

I would like to find a balance where maces are better in some situations, and hammers in others.

There's a bunch of ways to manipulate stats.

Maces are usuallly one-handed clubs as opposed to huge polehammers, right? You could drive them apart with the recovery numbers. Long handles mean you get the first blow in over the smaller weapons, so it could have a very fast windup (first number) at the expense of recovery time as you struggle to maintain your balance wrenching that monster back into a ready position. Smaller weapons are the exact opposite, trading out the first strike for the chance to get hits in while the hammer brother is still wrestling with his implement.

Toady does have a point with the hammers having smaller contact areas (since the things were more like metal picks than forge hammers), but even just the current 10 versus 20 is a really big power discrepancy with how physics works, so keeping those two close to each other is the best option for now. You could potentially fudge with the velocity values so a given swing with either would do the same thing to a guy's ribcage while the mace would mush much more of the surrounding flesh in the process, but that's fiddly work.

Penetration depth also matters. Maces and clubs with a low penetration value would crack bones inside the body, but leave the overall arrangement of the tissues intact. Hammers, on the other hand, cave in skulls and chests like nothing and it makes sense that they'd send bone fragments straight through lungs and hearts.

[Deon]

It could be done with changing ATTACK:PREPARE_AND_RECOVER to give them a faster attack speed, but all of the ones in-game are all 3 iirc.

This. Give maces less "prepare" speed, and they are better than hammers because you don't need to "adjust the angle" to strike.

[Urist Da Vinci]

I get this from my combat calculator script, for a slightly-above-average dwarf:

Code: [Select]

steel   mace
NAME    EDGE    CONTACT PNTRT   WEIGHT  VEL     MOMENTUM(+500%/-50%)
bash    blunt   20      200     6.28    22      142
Blunt deflect if layer weight more than:        2408

steel   war hammer
NAME    EDGE    CONTACT PNTRT   WEIGHT  VEL     MOMENTUM(+500%/-50%)
bash    blunt   10      200     3.14    41      129
Blunt deflect if layer weight more than:        1204

War hammers are strictly better because they have a smaller contact area (and contact area doesn't expand when an attack passes through layers), except in the cases where the opponent's body part has a contact area of 10 or less (i.e. fingers).

...
Would increasing their velocity affect their deflection rate? They could be a more defensive weapon.

The weapon velocity modifier affects the swing speed in the combat calculations, directly affecting the momentum.
The attack prepare/recover times doesn't affect momentum/damage.
Armor and tissue layer damage/protection is momentum/volume based, while ability to parry/block/dodge is a function of skills and situation.

[Art]

OK so making maces parry better is not going to be mod-able.

Judging by the contact area, they are not meant to be flanged. I will see what I can do to make them better against unarmored foes.

Edit - The velocity is half, even though the modifier is the same? I suppose this is because the maces are twice as heavy?