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[Tirion]

You'd need to make the more powerful castes more common for that though. I wonder, if an entity position has specific caste requirements, will Armok wring one of that caste out of his beard every time during worldgen to fill that position?

[taldarus]

Balance is a long way away. I think its safe to say this is more drawing board than alpha atm
I would really want the ultimate one to be REALLY rare though. Paladins as I envision them would scare the crap out'a myself. These guys would be pretty darn legendary, and equipped in some of the best gear, in the world. I would guess traps to be ineffective, but I hadn't thought about it.

[Sagus]

You can't make single gendered races. If they have no in-game way to breed, they will all die in world generation.

Also, while you don't play with graphics, many people do, and you're also making this mod for them, not only yourself. You have to think about these things. An idea for this would be limiting castes to certain jobs (only the dwarf caste can mine, so the tileset will be a dwarf; only humans can be warrior with swords or mace, so the tileset wil be human, etc), though I dont know how feasible this is to program and I guess it could reeeeeeally break the game in you embarked without one of the castes...

[Meph]

You can't make single gendered races. If they have no in-game way to breed, they will all die in world generation.

Also, while you don't play with graphics, many people do, and you're also making this mod for them, not only yourself. You have to think about these things. An idea for this would be limiting castes to certain jobs (only the dwarf caste can mine, so the tileset will be a dwarf; only humans can be warrior with swords or mace, so the tileset wil be human, etc), though I dont know how feasible this is to program and I guess it could reeeeeeally break the game in you embarked without one of the castes...

It doesnt quite work, I tried that in Warlock mode. Nobles override the profession graphics, and soldier types do too. That means you also need to restrict those. Migrants ignore the skills they can and can not learn, and arrive even with skills that cant be learned, while spawned civ members, regardless of skills, will always show the default "peasant" sprite at first. There is also only 1 sprite for babies, 1 for children and 1 for ghosts. I worked around a lot of that by making Warlock peasants hooded figures, so you dont know whats under it (skeleton, ghoul or warlock), and have no babies/children in the first place. And no migrants, besides the first 2 hardcoded waves.

[slay_mithos]

It's sad, but that's one of the many limitations of modding this game.

You can either change your ideas or go for really convoluted workarounds, and that really shuts down quite a few nice ideas over the years.

The first time I really heard about the civ limitations was when people tried to make the goblins into a playable race with the DF canon of abducting babies and making them integral part of their civilization.
It often ended in all kind of messes, some went as far as script in order to only allow marriage between the same race, and to pseudo hard code children, among other things.

But even then, and no matter what graphics you use, it becomes near impossible to distinguish the various races you have at a glance, and unless you rename everyone, you can't tell who is what from most menus either.

It somewhat works for undying races (like the warlocks), but even then, it means forcing a lot of limitations on the player (like X caste can only learn Y and Z skills).

So, while I'd love to see the goblins or an other similar race as playable, I think you would end up putting way too many limitations everywhere that it would become a chore to play, especially with the random embark teams ("yay, I can't get any digging experience because I got no digger from the starting team, it's going to take ages to dig the fort").

[taldarus]

Wow, ok, there is some vehemence about the whole race thing. I can work up a quick model for you guys. The graphics are important, yes, and I would point out some cool stuff has recently been done there. That's not my thing. Going to use kobolds for an example, hope thats ok. Just going to borrow some stuff to demonstrate the idea.

I also would point out, I was just trying to present a new idea. I am pretty busy, and was just hoping to build creativity. Any to churn out an example now.

[pisskop]

I personally do not want alliances and morally absolute races.

[taldarus]

We can remedy your folly. *draws holy sword of fire*

OH and here is an example. No idea if it works, kinda in a hurry here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

creature_example

[CREATURE_CLASS:Multi-race]
   [DESCRIPTION:A group of multiple races, allied for a common good, example. They are sexist *U(*&(& only allowing men to join. ]
   [NAME:eg:egs:eg]
   [CREATURE_TILE:'k'][COLOR:6:0:0]
   [GLOWTILE:'"'][GLOWCOLOR:6:0:1]
   [INTELLIGENT]
   [CANOPENDOORS]
[BODY:HUMANOID_NECK:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH:TONGUE:FACIAL_FEATURES:TEETH:RIBCAGE]

[CASTE:DWARF INITIATE]
   [MALE]
   [BODY_SIZE:0:0:60000]    <----NOTE full grown at 'birth'. In my case, it is not a literal birth, but a spiritual one, like the hermit. The population come from any race. make an oath to a statue of the mother and receive her blessing.
   [ATTACK:PUNCH:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:GRASP]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:punch:punches]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
[CASTE:ELF INITIATE]
   [MALE]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:60000] <-- Will change to be accurate to each race
   [ATTACK:PUNCH:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:GRASP]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:punch:punches]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
[CASTE:HUMAN INITIATE] <- Give uniquely human attributes and descriptions. More cosmetic, until I implement something like cave adaptation. burrows will be needed.
[MALE]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:60000]
   [ATTACK:PUNCH:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:GRASP]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:punch:punches]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
[CASTE:The Mother]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:60000]
   [DESCRIPTION:A statue of the mother. It is a holy and sacred relic, only held in the most holy of sites.]
   [NAME:mother:mother:mother]
   [CASTE_NAME:mother:mother:mother]
   [CREATURE_TILE:244][COLOR:3:0:0]
   [FREQUENCY:0][CANNOT_UNDEAD][BENIGN][PET][PETVALUE:5000000] <-shes a bit game breaking
 [SUPERNATURAL][FEMALE] [LITTERSIZE:10:50] <-SOLID population growth. However, she is end game (after you have built a fort. It is unholy to stash her in a poor quality room. So a noble? A noble statue....
   [FIREIMMUNE][WEBIMMUNE][MAGMA_VISION]
   [SMALL_REMAINS][NOT_BUTCHERABLE][IMMOBILE]
   [NO_DRINK][NO_EAT][NO_SLEEP][NOPAIN][EXTRAVISION][NO_FEVERS]
   [NOBREATHE][NOSTUN][NONAUSEA][NOEMOTION][NOBONES][NO_DIZZINESS]
   [BODY:MONOLITH]  <-using pylon to demonstrate, need to change some things from time to time.
   [SOUND:PEACEFUL_INTERMITTENT:12:15000:NONE:hum:hums:humming]
   [SOUND:ALERT:20:8000:NONE:resonate:resonates:a resonating tone]
      [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BONE:BONE_TEMPLATE] <- should be something better, but in a hurry
      [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:BONE:BONE_TEMPLATE]
      [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:BONE]
   [ITEMCORPSE:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:SMOKE]

As I said, it's mostly cosmetic. I hurried this out, and am sure there are some bugs in there, but its probably something obvious like lungs so...

Very puzzled by everyones response. I think this is so simple its not funny. Graphics will be easy. (see - white cloaks - wheel of time) If you want a quick and dirty fix, kinda like the warlocks I suppose. I dislike the one race does this, and another does that. The reason is being it can still be overridden by the player in game, so it's still cosmetic. A uniform goes a long way to hiding the difference between humans and elves. Attitude of the races creates the fun. Create a dwarf only squad for underground combat. Or prepare holy lanterns and don't pay any heed to the problem at all. Don't cut down trees (There are elves in this room!) or you will enrage your elven members. This works, because you are not supposed to be there to mine or cut tree, but to hunt evil.

The problem I am curious about is the nobles. I haven't touched that stuff in my editing. I prefer genetics, much more fun imo. Can you restrict quality and type of gear for nobles, and have that be the tantrum's edge in their minds. I think that will be fun!

Puts 'pisskop' in chains. To teach him the error and corruption of his ways.

[slay_mithos]

I guess all that's left to say is "have fun", and I'll be waiting to see what comes from this, if it suits my tastes as a race or if it's too convoluted for me.
Not like I'm the only one anyway, and if the race plays well and is not too complicated, you'll get players.

[taldarus]

It should be very simple, maybe even too simple. There will be almost no industry, just fighting. FPS and clutter are big concerns imo. You will manufacture a little, but just a tiny bit. Eventually you can start a few small supplemental industries, but it should be optional. The real choices are, fight or fight?

The genetics I am not worried about. Althrough workshop reactions and the gear restrictions are outside my scope. I was really expecting some experienced modder to come along and say, "I have got this little noob. Good idea, now sit down and watch a master work."

I was still gonna do it myself, but at my own pace, just for fun. *Shrugs* Now it seems to be a challenge. Makes me want to finish today, but I don't think I will have the time for that.

[Sagus]

This seems more like a "survival mode" than a "good race" civilization. Are you gonna force constant invasions with DF Hack or something?

I assume you'll be removing their basic necessities as well, since they won't be farming or anything, right?

[taldarus]

I intend for you to become established, but the first years will be a bit of a survival mode, yes. you will build temples, etc. I won't hack df the gear they make is beyond value. one piece of blessed junk will draw sieges like honey on butter. you will be able to attract sieges before end of year one. I assume that df hasn't changed since I succeeded in making a spawn free golden bricks reaction a couple of years ago. sieges came at you so fast.... he he

there will be balance in it, but that assumes I keep it the same way. still haven't heard anyone comment about the equipment version of nobles, so it's either incredibly easy or'impossible'. I have two ideas if it is the later. one decent, one mediocre. did a bit of work on it this morning, and created a race of boulder crabs some how. he he the fun is already beginning. pretty sure it's a problem in the entity file. race already works in the arena, but that doesn't say much

edit: honey on butter? how did that happen?

edit 2: the three races plus the mother function properly in the arena, not the boulder crabs. irony is I started modding to create a functional insect fort, and gave up (to little end game). now the d#mn thing falls in my lap. feels like a error response built into the game, I assume someone has encountered it.

[smakemupagus]

still haven't heard anyone comment about the equipment version of nobles, so it's either incredibly easy or'impossible'.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Position_token
tells you what you can do with entity positions (nobles).

[taldarus]

cool, semi helpful. I noticed it mentioned weapon racks etc. is there any more specific details, or will I just have to muddle through? not trying to be difficult, just killing time omw to work, and hard to use a phone for this stuff.

in detail, I notice there are furniture requirements, but isn't there also quality as well, I just see quantity.. I know there are quality requirements though. I can't remember if they include clothes and furniture

this leads me to plan 3, creating workshops that spawn the gear. a holy shrine, and the warrior goes to pray before battle. clunky and hard to design, anyone try that? I know warlocks do it, but obviously I am wanting to tie a workshop directly to a nobles happiness... may have to scrap the idea, but I really need a balance point for inane OP holy relics of destruction.

[Meph]

There are no quality or cloth requirements, literally everything there is to know is on that wiki page. You have a value requirement for rooms though, also on that page.