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Author Topic: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?  (Read 2184 times)

Pirate Bob

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why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« on: September 18, 2014, 02:46:59 pm »

Does anyone know why the penetration depth for the stabbing attacks of swords (and halberds) is less than the penetration of their slashing attacks?  This seems backwards, but I suspect either I don't understand what I am looking at or there is a good reason for it.

I'm not sure if this is strictly a "modding" question, but it seems like modders would be most likely to know the answer (or at least understand what I'm talking about).

scamtank

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 03:09:29 pm »

If I'd have to think of a reason, it's could be a balance thing. Slashing attacks have a much harder time penetrating than the tiny contact areas of stabs, so if the wielder just happens to be a musclebound hulk that can make the most of it, he's earned the extra depth. The "Conan cleaving dudes asunder" effect.

More probably though it's just the weapon values being half-baked and not entirely thought out.
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Pirate Bob

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 04:16:11 pm »

This is kind of what I was thinking - Toady may have noticed that swords were piercing hearts/brains etc more often than he liked, and reduced the penetration to decrease this.  But I don't know why he wouldn't just reduce the velocity multiplier instead if he thought stabs were overpowered.  Maybe he wanted them to penetrate armor better, but not go right through people? 

GavJ

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 06:35:28 pm »

Clearly DF swords are shaped like giant "T"s with the pointy parts at both of the two top ends.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 10:21:38 pm »

Like the Uruk-Hai swords?
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GavJ

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 10:25:04 pm »

yup
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evictedSaint

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 12:17:36 am »

The real answer is that all attacks are based on penetration and contact area (and to a lesser extent velocity).

The game doesn't recognize the difference between "slash" and "stab" and "bludgeon", only the values that each attack carries.  I suspect Toady may modify the properties of attacks at some point so the effects of different moves are better realized.

Pirate Bob

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 09:05:53 am »

The real answer is that all attacks are based on penetration and contact area (and to a lesser extent velocity).

The game doesn't recognize the difference between "slash" and "stab" and "bludgeon", only the values that each attack carries.  I suspect Toady may modify the properties of attacks at some point so the effects of different moves are better realized.
I am aware that the names of the attacks are only used for creating logs, and have no impact on performance.  I am specifically wondering if anyone who's been around for a while knows why Toady decided to make stabbing attacks have a lower penetration depth than slashing attacks, as this is contrary to what one would expect in the real world.

My best guesses are either:
a) A game balance issue - at some point he found stabs were too powerful, and lowered penetration depth to compensate.
b) An oversight.  However this seems unlikely as it is consistent across all stabbing weapons.
c) I don't understand how penetration depth is interpreted by the game.  I thought it was the maximum combined thickness of clothing, armor, and tissue which could be penetrated by an attack, and that long pointy weapons (like spears) have a higher penetration depth than shorter weapons (like knives).

So far I would say the most sensible answer is
If I'd have to think of a reason, it's could be a balance thing. Slashing attacks have a much harder time penetrating than the tiny contact areas of stabs, so if the wielder just happens to be a musclebound hulk that can make the most of it, he's earned the extra depth. The "Conan cleaving dudes asunder" effect.
...
In other words, slashing attacks are not limited by penetration depth at all, but rather by whether the attack has enough momentum (due to the attacker's strength, etc) to cleave all the way through the impacted layers.  Due to the very large contact areas of most slashing attacks, they generally will not be able to penetrate deeply because it costs too much momentum to penetrate such a large area of armor/tissue, and in general will penetrate less than the stabbing attacks in spite of the larger penetration depth.  However if you are really strong and/or hit a smallish body part (effective contact area is the smaller of the weapon contact area and body part size) you might be able to go all the way through and cut off the body part.

I am pretty that the standard penetration depth of swords (2000) is enough to penetrate most humanoid sized body parts (I've certainly stabbed people in the heart with a long sword), so this really only comes into play for attacks on large creatures.  This may have been added so that you can't stab a dragon/hydra through the heart with a short sword.

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2014, 12:44:05 pm »

I am pretty that the standard penetration depth of swords (2000) is enough to penetrate most humanoid sized body parts (I've certainly stabbed people in the heart with a long sword), so this really only comes into play for attacks on large creatures.  This may have been added so that you can't stab a dragon/hydra through the heart with a short sword.

That hasn't been my experience. Just last night I was playing a human adventurer with High strength wielding an +iron two-handed sword+. Multiple times I tried to stab goblins in the head/neck and only bruised the muscle through their clothing.

They didn't even have armor. Swords are crap for stabbing.
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Pirate Bob

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 02:10:38 pm »

I am pretty that the standard penetration depth of swords (2000) is enough to penetrate most humanoid sized body parts (I've certainly stabbed people in the heart with a long sword), so this really only comes into play for attacks on large creatures.  This may have been added so that you can't stab a dragon/hydra through the heart with a short sword.

That hasn't been my experience. Just last night I was playing a human adventurer with High strength wielding an +iron two-handed sword+. Multiple times I tried to stab goblins in the head/neck and only bruised the muscle through their clothing.

They didn't even have armor. Swords are crap for stabbing.
I will have to do mass tests of this.  More precisely, I will have to take a close look at the logs of melee combat testing I have already been doing.  A two-handed sword has penetration depth of 4000 for stabbing, which is pretty large, so your experience doesn't make any sense to me, but I will do some large-scale controlled testing to make sure.

StagnantSoul

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2014, 05:10:14 pm »

If it has a large contact area, it'll be rather poor for stabbing.
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Pirate Bob

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2014, 05:43:20 pm »

If it has a large contact area, it'll be rather poor for stabbing.
All swords have a contact area of 50 for stabbing, which should be pretty good at penetrating armor/tissue (at least theoretically).  For contrast, warhammers have contact area 10 and go through pretty much all armor (I think) and slashing has contact areas in the thousands.

Stabbing does have a low velocity multiplier (only 1.0) so that combined with the moderate contact area might make penetration poor.  I really need to test this...

Update:  I checked my logs of goblins vs goblins with iron mail and helm and found this:
Code: [Select]
Goblin 1430 stabs Goblin 278 in the head with his steel short sword, tearing the muscle, shattering the skull and tearing apart the brain through the small iron helm!
...
Goblin 1537 stabs Goblin 385 in the head with his steel short sword and the severed part sails off in an arc!
So swords definitely can penetrate pretty deeply.  I wasn't able to find any cases where the attack did little damage, as you describe, but I'm sure it's possible.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 07:35:10 pm by Pirate Bob »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2014, 08:05:49 pm »

Here are results from my combat calculator used on a mostly average 0.40.08 human:

Code: [Select]
[DFHack]# combat
Creature size (base/current/racial):    6930    7222    7000
Creature strength (base/current):       1000    1000
Wrestle/Charge rating:  82

ITEMS

steel   breastplate
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     1781
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       70
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  75      3
Volume/contact area/penetration:        252
Weight:         19.782
shear yield/fracture:   430000  720000

steel   helm
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     798
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       70
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  34      3
Volume/contact area/penetration:        113
Weight:         8.8705
shear yield/fracture:   430000  720000

steel   gauntlet
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     176
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       70
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  7       3
Volume/contact area/penetration:        25
Weight:         1.9625
shear yield/fracture:   430000  720000

steel   high boot
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     332
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       70
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  14      3
Volume/contact area/penetration:        47
Weight:         3.6895
shear yield/fracture:   430000  720000

steel   greaves
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     2340
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       70
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  99      3
Volume/contact area/penetration:        331
Weight:         25.9835
shear yield/fracture:   430000  720000

BODY PART ATTACKS
NAME    EDGE    SIZE    CONTACT PNTRT   WEIGHT  VEL     MOMENTUM(+500%/-50%)
PUNCH   blunt   104     22      104     0.52    100     53      bone
PUNCH   blunt   104     22      104     0.52    100     53      bone
KICK    blunt   156     28      156     0.78    100     79      bone
KICK    blunt   156     28      156     0.78    100     79      bone
SCRATCH edged   31      9       31      0.155   100     16      nail
                shear yield/fracture:   115000  130000
SCRATCH edged   31      9       31      0.155   100     16      nail
                shear yield/fracture:   115000  130000
BITE    edged   7       3       7       0.035   100     4       tooth
                shear yield/fracture:   115000  130000

BODY PART DEFENSE
Volume/Contact/Thickness/Material/Blunt_Momentum_Resist/Shear_Yield/Frac
upper body
        SKIN    21      115     3       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     222     115     41      fat     4       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  1116    115     205     muscle  22      20000   20000
lower body
        SKIN    21      115     3       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     222     115     41      fat     4       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  1116    115     205     muscle  22      20000   20000
neck
        SKIN    2       24      1       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     22      24      18      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  110     24      94      muscle  2       20000   20000
head
        EYEBROW 11      51      4       hair    0       60000   120000
        EYEBROW 11      51      4       hair    0       60000   120000
        HAIR    5       51      2       hair    0       60000   120000
        HAIR    5       51      2       hair    0       60000   120000
        SKIN    5       51      2       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     59      51      24      fat     1       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  302     51      124     muscle  6       20000   20000
right upper arm
        SKIN    4       39      2       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     44      39      23      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  111     39      59      muscle  2       20000   20000
        BONE    111     39      59      bone    44      115000  130000
left upper arm
        SKIN    4       39      2       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     44      39      23      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  111     39      59      muscle  2       20000   20000
        BONE    111     39      59      bone    44      115000  130000
right lower arm
        SKIN    4       39      2       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     44      39      23      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  111     39      59      muscle  2       20000   20000
        BONE    111     39      59      bone    44      115000  130000
left lower arm
        SKIN    4       39      2       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     44      39      23      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  111     39      59      muscle  2       20000   20000
        BONE    111     39      59      bone    44      115000  130000
right hand
        SKIN    1       21      1       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     17      21      17      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  44      21      44      muscle  0       20000   20000
        BONE    44      21      44      bone    17      115000  130000
left hand
        SKIN    1       21      1       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     17      21      17      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  44      21      44      muscle  0       20000   20000
        BONE    44      21      44      bone    17      115000  130000
right upper leg
        SKIN    10      72      3       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     111     72      32      fat     2       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  278     72      81      muscle  5       20000   20000
        BONE    278     72      81      bone    111     115000  130000
left upper leg
        SKIN    10      72      3       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     111     72      32      fat     2       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  278     72      81      muscle  5       20000   20000
        BONE    278     72      81      bone    111     115000  130000
right lower leg
        SKIN    8       62      2       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     89      62      30      fat     1       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  223     62      75      muscle  4       20000   20000
        BONE    223     62      75      bone    89      115000  130000
left lower leg
        SKIN    8       62      2       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     89      62      30      fat     1       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  223     62      75      muscle  4       20000   20000
        BONE    223     62      75      bone    89      115000  130000
right foot
        SKIN    2       28      1       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     26      28      20      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  66      28      50      muscle  1       20000   20000
        BONE    66      28      50      bone    26      115000  130000
left foot
        SKIN    2       28      1       skin    0       20000   20000
        FAT     26      28      20      fat     0       10000   10000
        MUSCLE  66      28      50      muscle  1       20000   20000
        BONE    66      28      50      bone    26      115000  130000
skull
        BONE    249     39      134     bone    99      115000  130000
[DFHack]#

So to stab a helmeted human in the brain, you need a minimum of 113 + 2 + 24 + 124 + 134 = 397 penetration, not including the brain's thickness. This also requires 353 BLUNT momentum to get a contact 50 weapon through the steel helm (i.e. a steel or worse sword), OR an adamantine sword will stab through like butter.

A contact 10 war hammer will get through the helm with only 70 momentum, and then applies ~63 momentum to the skull's 25 resistance (at contact 10).

Pirate Bob

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2014, 02:58:49 pm »

Thanks for the details Urist, and making it clear that penetration depth is not at all limiting for swords damaging humanoids.

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Re: why doesn't stabbing penetrate?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2014, 03:45:40 pm »

Hm. It looks like I was just having really bad luck that day (or the goblin had very high Armor User, maybe.)
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