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Should we update to a new DF version?

Never!
- 1 (9.1%)
Update to DF 0.40.15 when Dwarf Therapist is available.
- 8 (72.7%)
Never mind DF 0.40.15, but maybe update later.
- 2 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 11


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Author Topic: Shadow empires  (Read 18601 times)

ptb_ptb

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Shadow empires
« on: September 23, 2014, 05:32:53 am »

Religion, mythology, legends, rumours. In the gray areas beneath the conventional truths lay secrets to untold powers. Or such was held to be true by the heretic Monks of Chaos. It was they, for instance, who claim to have found the First Anvil. Everydwarf knows about the epic beatdown of darkness by Armok but the Monks of Chaos hold that darkness got in a lucky cheapshot to Armok's jaw causing one of his front teeth to be chipped[1]. They say that that chip later fell to earth and, being invulnerable to all forms of heat and damage was quickly found and used to forge metal items by the early proto-dwarves.

Ruined temples and scattered texts are all that remain of the Monks of Chaos but echos of their beliefs still trouble the world today.

One such heresy is that of the reality shard or ş̴̢̛͍̘͕͓̫̙̭̜̆͋̏̉̇́̄͌̕á̶̢̨̡̫̠̰̲͔͇̳̏̒́̅̎̿͑̉̚ṿ̴̧̨̨̛̯̟̲̻̦̗̀̈́͒̃͑͐̃̊͝e̷̢̺̗̺̯͖̙̮̝̺͂̏̈́͆̾̉̋̓̈͝ ̶̨̡̨͕̝̬͚̤̩͗̐͐̈́̏̉̐͋͜͠͝p̴̡̜͉͙̬͔̹͇̦̄̒͐̃̈͐͊͒͘͜͝ö̴̢̜̻̬̜̳̠̹̼̟́͌͐̓͋̾̓̌͘͝i̶̳̰̜̖͇̞̭̼̳͙̍̑̋̉̓̽̕̕͠͠n̷̡̦̫̙̰͕͓̭͙͎͋̾̆̉͋̀̐̐̉̕ẗ̴̨̧͍̼̘͚̼̹̪͖́̎̉̿͊̓͗̌̒͝, as it is described in the ancient texts.

It holds that an unholy ritual can be used to give unearthly power to one dwarf when seven take part in a certain ritual. The catch? Only one dwarf survives. The others have their souls eaten and their entire existence wiped from history. The survivor is known as the Shadow Emperor.

[1] The belief that Armok's teeth could be chipped is why the Monks of Chaos were deemed to be heretic.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 08:06:33 am by ptb_ptb »
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ptb_ptb

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 05:46:04 am »

So what is this?

It's a potential succession fortress / adventurer game. The idea goes something like this...

Stage 1. Players are recruited, each one represents a potential participant in the reality shard ritual. They each take turns to spend one and one half game years making a fortress (player fortresses should not be placed closer than 5 world map squares to another player fortress). During that time they should store up equipment useful for the adventurer they will be using later. (Probably place them behind a bridge/lever combo or something to stop kea stealing them).

Stage 2. When all players have had their fortress turns and retired them the unholy ritual of ş̴̢̛͍̘͕͓̫̙̭̜̆͋̏̉̇́̄͌̕á̶̢̨̡̫̠̰̲͔͇̳̏̒́̅̎̿͑̉̚ṿ̴̧̨̨̛̯̟̲̻̦̗̀̈́͒̃͑͐̃̊͝e̷̢̺̗̺̯͖̙̮̝̺͂̏̈́͆̾̉̋̓̈͝ ̶̨̡̨͕̝̬͚̤̩͗̐͐̈́̏̉̐͋͜͠͝p̴̡̜͉͙̬͔̹͇̦̄̒͐̃̈͐͊͒͘͜͝ö̴̢̜̻̬̜̳̠̹̼̟́͌͐̓͋̾̓̌͘͝i̶̳̰̜̖͇̞̭̼̳͙̍̑̋̉̓̽̕̕͠͠n̷̡̦̫̙̰͕͓̭͙͎͋̾̆̉͋̀̐̐̉̕ẗ̴̨̧͍̼̘͚̼̹̪͖́̎̉̿͊̓͗̌̒͝, is held.

Stage 3. Each player, starting from the same save game file, starts an adventurer (hero, not demigod) from their fortress. The adventurer has up to one game month (28 days) to gain control[1] of as many dwarven sites as possible or die in the attempt. When the time is up, or the adventurer decides he has enough sites to win, each player relates their adventures and boasts of their successes. The player with the most sites is the survivor, and his save game file is used for the next part.

Stage 4. The 'shadow emperor' (winner of stage 3)  then retires, either in a nearby site or his actual fortress (N.B. The latter may be risky).

Stage 5. Repeat from stage 1. Players can unretire their previous fortress, or start a new one. The 'Shadow emporer's' fortress has the the advantage of being allowed two years preparation instead of just one and a half.

[1] Claim location, recruit hearthperson, chase away rightful ruler.

FAQ:
Q. What happens if my adventurer dies?
A. You lose that round. You can join back in in the next fortress building round.

Q. What happens if my fortress falls?
A. If it completely fails, you lose that round. But if even one dwarf stays alive and sane until the end of the turn (one and a half game years) you are still good to go. So hang in there.

Q. Can you ...?
A. Most tactics and actions are just fine. Please don't outright cheat. You are free to use macros to make everyday adventuring more convenient, but please don't use macros to train up skills in endless repeated crab wrestling or similar. If you want to endlessly repeat crab wrestling you have to risk carpal tunnel syndrome and type everything out. :P

Other things I consider rather 'exploity' include repeatedly picking up water / blood to drink or filling your backpack with water, cheating dwarves while exchanging items by picking up the stuff they drop and trading it again or carrying 11 thousand bees to use as missiles.

Q. Is it OK to make backup saves while playing?
A. Absolutely! I would particularly recommend making a backup save just before retiring / unretiring your adventurer or your fortress. You can use these backups in case the game crashes and to test whether the game will crash (there are some 'delayed effect' crashes!). Please do not use the backup saves if you do something stupid in game. ;)

HISTORY
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Currently in Fortress Building round.

Turn 1.
Player: ptb_ptb
Clan: Iron Fist
Civilization: The Gloved Key

Turn 2.
Player: Timeless Bob
Clan: The Clan of Beers
Civilization: The North Works

Turn 3
Player: pisskop
Clan: Coop Castle
Civilization: The Cooperative Castle

Turn 4?
Player: PsychoAngel
Clan: The Council of Purification
Civilization: The Torches of Land
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:34:53 pm by ptb_ptb »
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Ruhn

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 12:10:41 pm »

Interesting idea, but I don't understand what the Gold and Platinum bars are for at the end?

ptb_ptb

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 12:15:41 pm »

Interesting idea, but I don't understand what the Gold and Platinum bars are for at the end?
Theoretically the idea is to give the winner of the last turn a small 'edge' in the next round. On second thoughts, you'd probably need an adventurer with legendary strength to carry them around. :P I should probably give that more thought.
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Timeless Bob

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 12:36:50 pm »

Instead of metal bars, use rings made entirely out of gemstones (rather than encrusted with them).  I was using gemstone rings as trade currency in my short-lived "Tar Rabin" game.  If each Player claims one specific type of gemstone as "thiers", then the rings would also show where they'd come from.  Of course, you could also set this up with specific weapons instead, which log their kill histories.  Have each dwarven clan embark with a specific melee weapon that their militia dwarves need to have equipped and the weapon will then be "logged" with that site as it's first kills.  When stolen by an adventurer, any further kills will be added to it's kill list, which will further identify its travels.
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ptb_ptb

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 12:44:31 pm »

Maybe demand a different transportable (not too heavy) masterwork item from each clan. The winner could placate nobles with them and you'd know who made them. Having a masterwork item of sufficient value could be a perquisite for successfully completing stage 1. If a player can't get a sufficiently valuable masterwork item in two game years running a fort somebody else gets to take his place.

Of course this whole idea does require seven players to actually want to play. :P
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Timeless Bob

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 04:18:38 pm »

Hey, I'm in.  And the whole game could be set up as <arbitrary number> CLANS, not necessarily <arbitrary number> PLAYERS.  When one Clan gains ascendancy through its champion, the others would then compete to produce an even stronger champion, to wrest that title of "greatest" from the current one's fame.

I'm reminded of this movie
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 04:30:58 pm by Timeless Bob »
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ptb_ptb

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 04:27:03 pm »

Cool. Well, it's late tonight so I'll do some planning and testing tomorrow.
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Prudent Viper

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 04:57:04 pm »

I really like this idea! Could lead to some great roleplay.
I do have a couple questions about stage three:
1)What happens if the adventurer dies?
2)An ingame year is a long time in adventurer mode. A season might be better?
3) Taking control of dwarven sites? Wouldn't you have to kill everyone in the fortress to do that?
4) The autowin invasion bug will ruin your day. It might be better to use 34.11?

Anyway, I'm in whenever this starts.
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pisskop

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 05:02:52 pm »

Sounds interesting, albeit I have zero clue how to play with DF like that.
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Timeless Bob

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 07:03:54 pm »

I really like this idea! Could lead to some great roleplay.
I do have a couple questions about stage three:
1)What happens if the adventurer dies?
2)An ingame year is a long time in adventurer mode. A season might be better?
3) Taking control of dwarven sites? Wouldn't you have to kill everyone in the fortress to do that?
4) The autowin invasion bug will ruin your day. It might be better to use 34.11?

Anyway, I'm in whenever this starts.

The autowin invasion bug could work in your favor though, if different Players were different civs of dwarf alltogether!  I can see it now: You train up an awesome militia, retire, and someone else's civ is invaded by those selfsame units.  Maybe they even appear in a seiging force in fortress mode!  Wouldn't that be interesting? (since dwarves are automatically "trapavoid"... )
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Prudent Viper

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 08:01:23 pm »

That would be effing amazing. OP! You must implement this.
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ptb_ptb

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 02:18:51 am »

It's great to have all this interest all of a sudden. :)

I'll be taking some time to decide / consult on details and test things.

I think the first thing I want to decide is the size of the world. The Natural History museum world I've been taking part in (Thanks Timeless Bob) seems to be 257 x 257. At that size it's slow enough to be a bit annoying at times but playable on my computer. I think at least a medium size (129x129) is needed for this sort of game. In theory, things that depend on world size would be four times as fast on 129x129. Or twice as fast on 257 x 129. Not everybody has the fastest computer (mine isn't ;) ) so maybe a compromise is in order.

I'm putting up a poll on the thread so anybody interested can have their vote.

I'll be back and comment on other questions / suggestions later.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

I really like this idea! Could lead to some great roleplay.
I do have a couple questions about stage three:
1)What happens if the adventurer dies?

If an adventurer dies the player (or clan) loses that round. The player (or clan) can take part again starting from the next round of fortress building.
Quote
2)An ingame year is a long time in adventurer mode. A season might be better?
I'll have to test that, but you're probably right. If we go for a season the actual length will be "90 game days" to avoid people getting varying length turns.
Quote
3) Taking control of dwarven sites? Wouldn't you have to kill everyone in the fortress to do that?
Again, something I'll have to test, but you can challenge the leader of a fortress / mountain home to be declared the new leader, I believe. You can also, I think, talk to someone from the fortress to have them keep control for you when you leave. This doesn't actually have any practical effect at the moment, but it can be used as a 'counter' for this game.

Quote
4) The autowin invasion bug will ruin your day. It might be better to use 34.11?

I think the autowin invasion bug _might_ ruin your day. It depends on how many invasions take place in one game year / season. Again, something I should test. A few random losses will just add to the flavor (IMO).

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Testing and results

Trying a 129x129 world I got 8 dwarven civilizations.


The Vestibule of Roads : 28 sites
The Tool of Tapering : 2 sites
The Glaze of Kissing : 43 sites
The Honest Sack : 27 sites
The Bridled Nets : 46 sites
The Buff Girder : 40 sites
The Solitary Channel : 56 sites
The Theater of Flight : 49 sites

In total 291 active dwarven sites. Your adventurers task would be to visit as many of those as he can, find the site leader, challenge the site leader, select a deputy. (Could take screenshots for proof, but I think they will show up in the legends view).

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Second post of thread updated!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 05:22:04 am by ptb_ptb »
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ptb_ptb

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 01:09:40 pm »

Trial run!

I start my fortress with a 2x2 embark and:

Serene
Shallow metals
Flux stone
Brook
Woodland
Warm

Copper picks (2)
Iron anvil
dwarven ale (20)
dwarven beer (20)
dwarven rum (20)
alligator snapping turtle meat (15)
rainbow trout (15)
plump helmets (15)
pig tail fiber thread (12)
blackberries (40)
strawberries (36)
male cats (10)

Diagnostician
Appraiser
Surgeon
Bone Doctor
Wound Dresser
Suturer
Grower
Brewer
Weaponsmith
Armorsmith
Herbalist
Clothier
Weaver
Spinner

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

First season results.

Got a bunch of iron from mining. Fortress is totz insecure.

Summer arrives.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Second season results.

Starting to look like an actual fort. Fortress is totz insecure.

Autumn arrives.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Third season results.

Thinking about one-way halls and suchlike. Ran out of booze.

Winter arrives.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Fourth season results.

Weapon smith is getting quite skilled. Farms are healthy.

Spring arrives.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Fifth season results.

Masterwork silver war hammer produced. Good stock of booze.  Working on armor smithing.

Summer arrives.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Sixth season results.

Armor smith continues to improve. Finally made a bedroom for last of immigrants.

Autumn arrives

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Seventh season results.

Fortress is somewhat secure (roof not finished). Attempting to make high quality full set of steel armor and a weapon. So far have

Steel helm (masterwork)
steel high boot x 2
steel gauntlet left/right
steel shield

Winter arrives

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Last season!

Final Adventurer Gift Set

Silver war hammer (masterwork)
Steel high boot x 2 (exceptional)
Steel helm (masterwork)
steel shield (exceptional)
steel left gauntlet (masterwork)
steel right gauntlet (exceptional)
steel greaves (masterwork)
steel short sword (exceptional)
steel pick (masterwork)
steel breastplate (masterwork)
giant olm leather cloak (superior)

(also lots of booze)


I am by no means an expert dwarf fortress player, so you can take this as an good example of what someone with two game years should be able to be able to produce in a safe location.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=

Helpful hints corner: Make sure you note the name of your fortress and the name of your civilization. It helps. I totally forgot to.
Fortress: Uthmiknomal "Shakestaff"
Civilization: Edzul Tulon "The Vestibule of Roads"
It appears that it may be difficult to start your adventurer from your player fort. So placing your player fort near a dwarven site could be sensible.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:33:29 pm by ptb_ptb »
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ptb_ptb

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Re: Shadow empires
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 02:49:09 pm »

Adventure mode!

Attrib:
High Strength
Above Average Agility
Above Average Toughness
Above Average Endurance
Above Average Social Awareness

Skills:
Competent Swordsdwarf
Adequate Swimmer
Novice Climber
Adequate Ambusher
Competent Shield User
Competent Armor User
Adequate Dodger

I can't get my player fortress for the starting location, so I go for 'Wireweb' - a dwarven hillocks.

Olon Nishenkos (Olon Tradetaken)

It is the 15th Granite, 273. Shakenstaff is apparently to the SW.

I head off to pick up my goodies.

I have till the 14th Hematite to complete my quest.

It took me two days to get about halfway to my player fortress.  Then I died. Things I found out:

1. Nobody respects you if you're only competent with your weapon.
2. Nobody wants to be the hearthperson of a nobody (possibly gratuitous slaughter would help? :P )
3. Travelling across mountains on an 800 elevation variance world is boring, but straightforwards.
4. BOGEYMEN MAY ATTACK YOU IN HILLOCKS!

Thus ends my trial run. I think the challenge will be sufficient. Possibly the two game year fortress start should be reduced to 18 months?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:08:50 am by ptb_ptb »
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