Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics  (Read 12349 times)

CLA

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« on: September 28, 2014, 06:03:45 am »

As the wiki subforum barely gets any exposure, this thread is intended as discussion and feedback thread for Wiki improvements regarding DF graphics. King Mir and I updated the tileset page recently and I now added an overview page called 'graphics' and one to document the graphic set syntax called 'Graphic set'. They're still fairly barebones, and I want to add more information. Right now I'm working on a basic tutorial for creating your own tileset with photoshop.
Furthermore, I think we should add the following eventually:
  • Advanced photoshop tutorials for stuff like partial transparency, inverted tiles, using black to mask parts of the background, and other "tile magic"
  • considering and incorporating the differences between GIMP and photoshop in the tutorials.
  • tables with information about creatures and professions (what name to use in graphic sets, default tile, possibly alt tiles)
  • a standardised template for creature graphics to download. This would consist of premade text files with all creatures listed and assigned to coordinates and corresponding .psd files that have one empty layer and one layer displaying coordinates (and maybe tile borders).
  • possibly a 3rd page containing documentation about raw and init settings pertaining to graphic changes (I'm mainly thinking about plants, but also condensing all the other init tile settings into one page)
If you can help with any of the above, it would be much appreciated.

Roadmap:
Milestone 1
Add barebones graphics page: short intro; installation instructions; links to all related pages. [DONE]
Add barebones Graphic set page: short intro, syntax explanation. [DONE]

Milestone 2
add basic tutorial to graphics page, including .psd template for tileset [IN PROGRESS]
add lists with creatures and professions to Graphic set page [DONE]

Milestone 3
advanced tutorial/tricks/magic to graphics page [NOT STARTED]
templates to Graphic set page: psd and text files [NOT STARTED]
raw and init syntax (separate page?) [NOT STARTED]


The original post is below in spoilers.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 02:45:04 pm by CLA »
Logged
CLA - an ASCII-like Graphic Pack with simplified letter-like creature graphics. The simple and clean looks of ASCII with distinct creature graphics - best of both worlds!

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105376.0

HaterSkater

  • Bay Watcher
  • #000000
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 06:39:13 am »

better to add numbers to questions ;)

1.,2.,3. (i'll answer after reading it)
4. Before duerer i did a small survey on pros/cons of different tile sizes in case of in-game look. Plus info you gave me in PM may be helpful too
5. i can give simple manual on how this does work in PS
6. This is how i see it:
    graphic set — set of creature graphics images
    graphic pack — original tileset+ original cr. graph+ optional additional twbt tilesets OR optional truetype font
    graphic pack (2) — pack of many single themed tilesets. Taffer for example got simple creature set and many basic tilesets with different fonts and walls
    tileset — have two meanings:
         1. most simple form of df graphical project, duerer as it is now. only basic tileset, no creatures, no twbt support
         2. 256 tiles 16x16 table that serves as a base for "most simple form of df graphical project" or for additional twbt tilesets
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 06:43:58 am by HaterSkater »
Logged
▲▲▲▲▲
;ÑÜ&,
.';,

Duerer TWBT tileset v.0.6.A

Rydel

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 06:43:00 am »

I support this endeavor.  At the moment, the Graphics Set page is probably the one most in need of work, as it doesn't exist at all but it probably the most complicated part.

HaterSkater

  • Bay Watcher
  • #000000
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 06:46:39 am »

oh also, CLA, link to localhost (aka your "User page") isn't a good idea in general ;D
Logged
▲▲▲▲▲
;ÑÜ&,
.';,

Duerer TWBT tileset v.0.6.A

Rydel

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 06:50:12 am »

All the links in your post seem to be blank.

HaterSkater

  • Bay Watcher
  • #000000
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 06:55:02 am »

UPD: about graphic pack — i agree with statement in your localhost:

Quote
Graphic Pack
come with installers, bundled with DF or as standalone to simply drop and overwrite in DF folder. Usually have instructions you should read.

back to the questions 1.2.3:
Quote
bmp or png, magenta/alpha transparency
magenta and alpha are kinda old school: it's much easier to use layer with layer masks, afaik gimp supports this too.
Quote
good practices: non-destructive editing, using separate layers, organizing in groups, grid, debug layers
ah ok, it's here. what is non-destructive editing by the way?

i agree with other things + section "advanced stuff/raw changes" is absolutely must-have

On question 3: i think that general page will be better having only simple step-by-step guide with links to subpages where necessary. HUGE manual isn't easy to read, especially when some people already know certain aspects. It's like most of 3dsMAX manuals: you skipping annoying pages with teapot settings only to realise that you have lost in this huge amount of info. Web gives us opportunity to use hyperlinks instead of "table of contents"/tapestries of text, why not to use it? :)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 07:10:36 am by HaterSkater »
Logged
▲▲▲▲▲
;ÑÜ&,
.';,

Duerer TWBT tileset v.0.6.A

CLA

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 06:55:18 am »

Fuck me, forgot to insert links. Thanks guys.
Logged
CLA - an ASCII-like Graphic Pack with simplified letter-like creature graphics. The simple and clean looks of ASCII with distinct creature graphics - best of both worlds!

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105376.0

HaterSkater

  • Bay Watcher
  • #000000
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 07:08:53 am »

CLA, i'm done editing my posts, reread them, if you didn't :)

+ something i forgot
1. i have some thoughts on colour schemes manual Actually it might be better to ask Vherid, he's a pro
2. it's good to include info on how to use Twbt because it became popular feature. check this out mm, i remember seeing Meph twbt manual in twbt thread, but can't find it :(
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 07:28:07 am by HaterSkater »
Logged
▲▲▲▲▲
;ÑÜ&,
.';,

Duerer TWBT tileset v.0.6.A

CLA

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2014, 07:35:10 am »

magenta and alpha are kinda old school: it's much easier to use layer with layer masks, afaik gimp supports this too.
Masks are alpha transparency. They're just attributed to a single layer instead of globally. If you ever noted the channel panel in PS, layer masks appear as alpha channels. The note about magenta is more about explaining the old bmp images, I plan to elaborate that it's deprecated of course.
Quote
what is non-destructive editing by the way?
Using a mask instead of eraser, so you can change it any time without "destroying" information; or using an adjustment layer instead of Image>adjustments.
Applied to DF:
Masking a tile on the old tileset you're editing and drawing the new tile on a new layer instead of erasing the old tile and drawing the new one directly on it;
having a separate layer for partial background transparency or noise effects applied to all tiles instead of drawing that directly on the same layer as the tiles;
Using an "Invert" adjustment layer with all but some tiles masked to invert them instead of drawing them with inverted colors (although that one might be overkill).

Quote
On question 3: i think that general page will be better having only simple step-by-step guide with links to subpages where necessary. HUGE manual isn't easy to read, especially when some people already know certain aspects. It's like most of 3dsMAX manuals: you skipping annoying pages with teapot settings only to realise that you have lost in this huge amount of info. Web gives us opportunity to use hyperlinks instead of "table of contents"/tapestries of text, why not to use it? :)
Yeah, that's what I thought. Put a short, concise paragraph on how to edit the components on the 'graphics' page and put the actual documentation (text file syntax for creature graphics for example) on their own page.

Edit:
Quote
i remember seeing Meph twbt manual in twbt thread, but can't find it :(
I saw it, too.
I don't want to include TWBT in the graphics page, since it's a 3rd party utility, and relies on DFhack, but there probably should be links to TWBT and 3D/isometric visualizers somewhere. IIRC there was a 3rd party utilities page on the wiki we could link to. That could include a tutorial for TWBT. But I don't think the 'graphics' page is the right place for that.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 07:37:40 am by CLA »
Logged
CLA - an ASCII-like Graphic Pack with simplified letter-like creature graphics. The simple and clean looks of ASCII with distinct creature graphics - best of both worlds!

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105376.0

HaterSkater

  • Bay Watcher
  • #000000
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2014, 07:40:54 am »

0. post with twbt manual, i told you about
1. This might be true, i'm just saying that layers+mask is better than single layer+alpha
2. ok,
3. good  ;D
Logged
▲▲▲▲▲
;ÑÜ&,
.';,

Duerer TWBT tileset v.0.6.A

CLA

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2014, 07:45:12 am »

This might be true, i'm just saying that layers+mask is better than single layer+alpha
Natually, I have no other intention.
Thanks for the feedback.
Logged
CLA - an ASCII-like Graphic Pack with simplified letter-like creature graphics. The simple and clean looks of ASCII with distinct creature graphics - best of both worlds!

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105376.0

mifki

  • Bay Watcher
  • works secretly...
    • View Profile
    • mifki
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2014, 08:14:09 am »

Just as a note, that "manual" is a bit outdated (at least there are better overrides syntax and support for tiletype overrides, new way to enable twbt). I'm not good at writing tutorials (and actually think it's all well documented in my readme file).

Taffer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2014, 10:53:34 am »

6. Can you please clarify the correct use of and differences between these terms:
(see also the end of the discussion thread linked above)
  • Tileset
  • Graphic set
  • Graphic pack
I'm not sure about it because, I used 'Tileset' and 'Graphic set' to distinguish between tilesets that change the raws and tilesets that don't. But from what I see, 'graphic set' is used for creature graphics (which I refer to just as 'creature graphics'). And if so, how do I distinguish between 'vanilla' tilesets and tilesets that require raw changes (other than writing a convulted sentence about it)?
Graphic pack is just tileset+creature graphics+color scheme+etc, though; right?

After all, it would be nice if I knew how these terms are used before I start writing wiki pages about it.

A graphic set requires [GRAPHICS:YES] in init.txt, as it makes use of that feature. (Or has this as an optional feature). Everything else is a tileset. There's a lot of unnecessary confusion about this, I think. RAW changes, TWBT, instructions included...these are completely irrelevant to the definition as far as I'm concerned. Reading through the DF reddit often turns up people referring to Phoebus, Mayday, Ironhand et al as "tilesets", which serves only to confuse newcomers and confuses definitions. (Well, it confused me at least when I started).

EG: Do I have to start calling Tocky's tileset an "ASCII tileset" now? What about the small barrel icon? It's clearly not an "ASCII" tileset, but there's no word other than tileset to refer to it. Similarly, how am I to easily differentiate between Jolly Bastion (which doesn't include creature graphics) and Phoebus (which does) if we start calling them both "graphic sets". Creature graphics are a significant feature to many Dwarf Fortress players, so it would be misleading (in my opinion) to use "graphics set" to include tilesets with raw changes.

I'm not aware of a specific definition of "graphic pack", but I think it's too similar to "graphic set" to refer to anything without creature graphics.

A tileset is a tileset even if it includes fancy colours, instructions, and an init.txt file. Under this definition my own set would be a tileset pack if it weren't for the optional creature graphics. I didn't add my set to the Graphics Set wiki page until I created my optional graphics, and I reverted Jolly Bastion being included there for the same reason.  TWBT confuses things a little, but I would still define that as a "tileset pack" unless it includes specific creature graphics. (ie, [GRAPHICS:YES] replicated in TWBT).

I think that the current "Tilesets for Edited Raws" as used in the Tileset Repository is sufficient, and the instructions for individual packs can be included in their respective descriptions.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 11:12:36 am by Taffer »
Logged

Vherid

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CREATURE:SLARK]
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2014, 11:47:55 am »

A tileset works as is without Raw changes, or providing creature graphics.

A graphicset potentially changes raws, and provides creature graphics.

Now frankly I have never heard of a graphics "pack", nor would I really see a difference between a set and pack, but if there had to be a difference, sets would change raws, packs would change raws and introduce creature graphics. Or the other way around. However I'd say we just stick with only tileset and graphics set.

Colorschemes have nothing to do with any of these really.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 11:53:39 am by Vherid »
Logged

CLA

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Improving the wiki documentation on DF's Graphics
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2014, 12:16:14 pm »

@Taffer, Vherid;
Thanks for the input.
I think for now I'll try to stick with "Tileset" and "creature graphics" to avoid confusion. So the section "create your own tileset" will include advice about raw/init changes and creature graphics will be treated in a separate section.
Updated the User Talk page.
Logged
CLA - an ASCII-like Graphic Pack with simplified letter-like creature graphics. The simple and clean looks of ASCII with distinct creature graphics - best of both worlds!

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105376.0
Pages: [1] 2 3