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Author Topic: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.  (Read 29162 times)

taptap

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2015, 04:08:20 am »

Remind me, Larix, how you achieve your own compact impulse ramp designs that skip these problems?  (Or do you just use straights...)

Not Larix, but I can answer this for you.

The principle:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109460.msg5152199#msg5152199 (I.e. it is half-carved ramps with only an upwards connection.)

The application:

http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2653-minecartescalator

http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2733-multi-cartmagmadelivery (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15096.msg6304529#msg6304529)

Larix

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2015, 11:37:17 am »

The oddities in the standard impulse elevator indeed are checkpoint effects - in the wiki version that has only two ramps on each level, the cart never gains speed, it just goes up until the corners sap all speed out of it (6000, due to checkpoint interactions). Each backward bounce picks up a full ramp's worth of acceleration, for 35000 speed, which lasts the cart another six levels. Wanderingkid came up with a nice improved spiral elevator:

I usually go with straight slopes; the no-acceleration type is very safe and easy to make, what i've been using in my magma lift is a slope of chained-up checkpoints: on an east-west slope (east is up), there are EW ramps alternating with NSE; at the latter, there's a tile of normal floor once again alternating between north and south of the ramp. The constant switching between ramp slants means every tile is a checkpoint and the cart traverses the track at a constant one tile and one z-level per step, regardless of the actual speed rating (which remains unchanged apart from normal floor friction). It can be built to work in both directions and can be ridden safely.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2015, 12:46:26 pm »

Well, in the case of fake ramps, you said they were unreliable at higher speeds.  Do you have any idea what causes the problems? 

And if I want a spiraling elevator, then generally, it's just OK, so long as the spiral takes the actual up-floor on the straight, rather than the curve, right?

In fact, to modify the wiki code, wouldn't this be more reliable? (All speed is lost on bumping into walls, but it should at least be regular speeds that do not threaten collisions.)
 
Code: [Select]
z +0    z +1    z +2    z +3
 ░░░░░   ░░░░░   ░░░░░   ░░░░░
 ░░░░░   ░══░░   ░▼▼║░   ░░░▼░
 ░║░░░   ░▼░░░   ░░░║░   ░░░▼░
 ░║▼▼░   ░▼░░░   ░░░░░   ░░══░
 ░░░░░   ░░░░░   ░░░░░   ░░░░░

Which one of these would be more ideal?: (Provided you don't worry about possibly over-accelerating...)
Code: [Select]
z +0     z +1     z +2     z +3
 ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░
 ░░░░░░   ░╔╔═░░   ░▼▼▼╗░   ░░░░▼░
 ░║░░░░   ░▼░░░░   ░░░░╗░   ░░░░▼░
 ░╚░░░░   ░▼░░░░   ░░░░║░   ░░░░▼░
 ░╚▼▼▼░   ░▼░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░═╝╝░
 ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░
Code: [Select]
z +0     z +1     z +2     z +3
 ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░
 ░░░░░░   ░╔╔╔░░   ░▼▼▼╗░   ░░░░▼░
 ░╚░░░░   ░▼░░░░   ░░░░╗░   ░░░░▼░
 ░╚░░░░   ░▼░░░░   ░░░░╗░   ░░░░▼░
 ░╚▼▼▼░   ░▼░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░╝╝╝░
 ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░   ░░░░░░
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 12:59:57 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Larix

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2015, 01:23:16 pm »

Both should work. The first would bounce the cart against every wall and wouldn't go very fast, but should be reliable for a small footprint. The second design really looks quite like wanderingkid's design here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=129453.msg4461652#msg4461652 That one uses a corner ramp for the first level up and gets a second level per accelerating ramp out of a checkpoint trick.

Re: no-acceleration ramps to move carts between levels:
Carts will jump when going too fast climbing pseudo-flat ramps. It appears that it's almost guaranteed that the cart will collide with a wall while jumping, which kills all speed. The highest speed that works without ending up with jumping cart seems to be about 30.000, reachable by a dwarven push with immediately adjacent impulse ramp(dwarven push teleports the cart into the middle of the tile, so it only receives 1/2 ramp of acceleration), a push plus a full ramp of acceleration is too much.

Carts can't go down such a slope at high speed, either - since the ramps don't accelerate, they're not fully legit by the game's logic and don't force carts down ramps. A derail-speed cart coming from a "flat ramp" won't follow a downward path. The design can be made one-way by using e.g. track corners connecting the up path to a wall to the side - traversible upwards, but carts going down get diverted by the corner.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2015, 02:17:25 pm »

So basically, the speed to avoid is derail speed.  As long as it has a derail-checker, it should still work?
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WanderingKid

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2015, 05:22:22 pm »

On a side note, check my sig.  I did some experimentation with derailing impulse elevators and found a way that consistently works.  Not sure if it'll help with checkpoint experimentation.

Larix

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2015, 02:16:18 pm »

I don't know what you mean with derailing there. I've built your elevator design for testing purposes and find that it does nothing which i'd call derailing. OTOH, it's a perfect example of _checkpoint_ lifting. The step-by-step analysis of a cart going up the circuit goes like this:

Code: [Select]
z+0     z+1     z+2     z+3
###     ###     ▲▲╗     ▼▼#
▼##     ##▲     ##▼     ▲##
╚▲▲     #▼▼     ###     ###


                765
###     ###     ╔╗╗     ▼▼#
▼##     ##║4    ##▼    8║##
╚╚╝     #▼▼     ###     ###
123

Going through it tile by tile:
1: cart comes from north/below, goes around the corner
2: cart is on a ramp with NE track, wall to the north, same-level tile (ramp) to the east - accelerates to east. The cart came from flat floor, so moves over the tile normally. It takes two steps to move across the tile and thus gains ~ 10 000 speed towards the east, then moves east.
Outgoing speed: starting speed plus 10 000 east.

3: ramp with NW track, wall north, same-level ramp west, accelerates west. Cart came from a different-slant ramp, thus it's a checkpoint. Cart is accelerated 5000 west by checkpoint compensation, another 5000 west ramp acceleration (i.e. loses all eastward speed it gained on the previous ramp), but checkpoint-teleports through the entire tile and moves to the next tile on the very next turn. Since the tile is a corner and the cart doesn't move fast enough to derail, it takes the corner and moves north, losing another 1000 speed for the corner.
Outgoing speed: Starting speed minus 1000 north.

4: ramp with NS track, wall north, down ramp south, accelerates south. Cart came from a different-slant ramp, thus another checkpoint. The cart gains 5000 speed south from the ramp itself _and 5000 east checkpoint compensation_ (last ramp slanted to the west and checkpoint acceleration is opposed to _last_ acceleration direction). Since it's a checkpoint, the cart again 'ports through the entire tile and moves on to the north on the next turn.
Outgoing speed: Starting speed minus 6000 north, exactly 5000 east.

5: flat corner. Cart came from a ramp, thus yet another checkpoint. Cart gains 5000 speed to the north as checkpoint compensation, checkpoint-teleports through the whole tile and yet again leaves the tile on the next step. Since the tile is a two-connection corner and the cart tries to leave north, it gets bent around to the west. All northward speed is converted to westward speed, the eastward speed is dropped entirely (resultant speed isn't reduced by previous eastward speed or anything like that). Taking the corner costs 1000 speed, as usual.
Outgoing speed: starting speed minus 2000 west.

6: ramp with wall to the south and a same-level ramp to the west, accelerates to the west. Since the cart came from a flat floor tile, it treats the tile as a normal ramp and gets normal acceleration. Depending on speed on arrival, the cart will spend two or three steps on the ramp, gaining either 10 000 or 15 000 speed.
7,8 etc. - the same events as above happen, mirrored.

The result is that the cart alternates between taking 5 and 6 steps to move up two levels; on a five-step cycle, it loses 2000 speed, on a six-step one, it gains about 3000. It's never fast enough to derail over the corners at 3 and 5. It maintains speed thanks to the impulse ramps at 2 and 6, but goes up levels exclusively through checkpoint effects.

The one irritating oddity is that if you extract the cart from the elevator without routing it through a track corner on or shortly behind the exit, the lateral speed gained when checking out of upward corner ramps (at 3 and 7) will persist and causes the cart to leave a straight track, which can lead to it hitting walls and stopping. That's not specific to this elevator, it always happens when moving up via corner ramp.

***

Two extremely minor things:
1. while my checkpoint-chain straight slope can lift an any-speed cart exactly one z-level per step with nothing more than normal floor friction, a faster ascension is possible with faster carts: you just need to only change slant on every _second_ ramp instead of every one. A cart with at least ~150 000 speed can move more than a full ramp tile in one step (but ramps can't get a cart fast enough to travel more than two ramps in one step). A slope changing slant only on every second ramp can be traversed at a speed to _two_ z-levels per step. And since checkpoints always neutralise the last ramp acceleration event that took place, the cart shouldn't lose more than the paltry 10 speed per step imposed by ordinary floor. The test cart went up 24 levels in 12 steps and had the same 200 000 speed at the exit that it had going in. The concept can also be used in a spiral, but as per usual, that'l lose 6000 speed per corner taken. At least the cart'll go up two levels per step and per corner taken, and maximum ramp speed should be good for 20 corners, i.e. 40 z-levels.

2. supersonic carts still exist in .40.24. I was a alarmed by a test where i ran a wooden cart into another wooden cart loaded to nominally exactly double the weight. Seems that i either didn't check the cart weights properly or the requirement is that the pushing cart must weigh _less_ than twice as much as the pushed cart. A pine cart (20 units) pushed by a somewhat loaded apricot wood cart (32) moved at almost four tiles per step after the collision, demonstrably above maximum ramp speed.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2015, 02:25:00 pm »

Sorry, when I was talking about a derail checker, I meant that you would want something to control for derails at the top of the stack.  (WanderingKid's design uses a quick zigzag to nullify any odd diagonal momentum and a high track stop to cut a little speed.)
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WanderingKid

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2015, 06:49:03 pm »

I don't know what you mean with derailing there. I've built your elevator design for testing purposes and find that it does nothing which i'd call derailing. OTOH, it's a perfect example of _checkpoint_ lifting. The step-by-step analysis of a cart going up the circuit goes like this:
Pardon, I'm no longer allowed to type until I engage my brain so the thoughts inside it come out correctly.  I'd meant to say non-derailing/wall-bouncing impulse elevators... errr... yeah...

Quote
Going through it tile by tile:
Thanks for this, it helps me understand what you're talking about much more discretely.  I wasn't quite getting it before.

Quote
3: ramp with NW track, wall north, same-level ramp west, accelerates west. Cart came from a different-slant ramp, thus it's a checkpoint. Cart is accelerated 5000 west by checkpoint compensation, another 5000 west ramp acceleration (i.e. loses all eastward speed it gained on the previous ramp), but checkpoint-teleports through the entire tile and moves to the next tile on the very next turn. Since the tile is a corner and the cart doesn't move fast enough to derail, it takes the corner and moves north, losing another 1000 speed for the corner.
This is where I get lost and need to re-read a lot of your earlier stuff, in the checkpoint compensation.  I'll come back when I have an intelligent question after I try to grok that again. :)

Niccolo

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2015, 10:26:33 pm »

Larix, you are truly amazing. This guide is awesome!

Basically I'm mostly convinced that you're the Dwarven God of Mechanics.
Yes I'm a huge fan of your work.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2015, 10:49:41 pm »

OK, putting all this up on the wiki, I've added about 20k characters to the wiki, the "Physics" section where I put most of this is now basically half the page, and there is a freak-ton more that the guide covers that was left totally vague when I read it, and kept getting results I didn't understand.  (I probably am also spamming anyone watching the page to madness, as I just did like 20 edits in a row...)

Once again, though, I'd like to have someone who has done more first-hand SCIENCE to look this over, as I'm mostly just cribbing from Larix's notes, here.

In the Sub-tile Positions and Velocity section, especially, I am uncertain of the exact order of events, and how they will play out.

Also, if anyone can help look over where a diagram would help explain something, I'm starting to get the hang of putting those in there...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 10:54:09 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Larix

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2016, 02:14:53 pm »

Some new findings on what i dubbed the "half checkpoint" - high-speed (>>100.000 speed) carts being prevented moving past the first proper ramp they encounter.
This is in fact a fairly far-reaching effect that generally limits the "effective" speed of carts on ramps, i.e. how many lined-up ramps a cart can move over. Notably, this limits carts to an absolute "over the ramps" max speed of seven tiles in three steps. Yes, i tested that with a supersonic cart - it couldn't cover more than seven tiles in three steps on ramps (both with ramps "in line" and opposed to cart movement direction), and went right back up to fifteen tiles per step when the cart returned to flat track.



High-speed carts moving on ramps run a check every 100000 units of standard (not converted for ramp use) distance. Whenever such a check happens and the cart hasn't crossed a tile border since the last check, the cart's move ends. A cart starts making checks when it enters a ramp coming from non-ramp tile, or when starting a move while already on a ramp.

Effects:
1)A cart will at most move 100000 into a ramp when coming from a flat floor.

2)Even the highest-speed carts cannot leave a ramp tile on the next move if their entry move only got them 40000 or less distance units into the tile.

3)When a cart's move is curtailed by this ramp braking effect, it ends its move exactly where the check was made, i.e. 100000 into a ramp entered from non-ramp, or after an integer multiple of 100000 from the start of its move - and that can only be 100000 (on the same tile), 200000 (on the next tile), 300000 or 400000 (only applies to transterminal speeds, two or three tiles of movement). A four-ramp move is impossible, the relevant tile border is always at least 425000 away, while the relevant check occurs at 400000.

Top-speed ramp-accelerated carts get limited to a one-tile move by ramp braking on roughly two moves in eleven, giving them an effective max movement speed of 1,82 ramps per step. Carts at transterminal speeds can manage seven ramps in three steps,

Checkpoint abusal allows two ramps constant per step up or down at speeds above 160k (allows transporting cargo and passengers), theoretically a constant three ramps per step are possible at transterminal speeds.

Testing done in DF 0.42.06, apart from the supersonic test, which took place in 0.34.11.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2016, 05:21:30 pm »

1) What dfhack tool did you use for testing?

2) When you say "checkpoint abusal allows two ramps constant per step at speeds above 160k", what do you mean? I don't think you mean alternating slant ramps with that speed qualifier, but it doesn't match max speed carts going slower either, and a cart moving in ramp-flat-flat cycle would move 60k into the ramp, far enough to skip the 40k point.

Speaking of practical applications, in addition to smaller ballista ranges more precise/compact teleporting through walls springs to mind.

Larix

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 12:15:06 am »

1. None :P
Dfhack offers the watch-minecarts script which can track location and speed of a cart. That's fine as far as it goes, but wouldn't have provided much useful info here.
I have a pretty detailed knowledge of cart speeds and movement patterns, so can easily (mentally or by hand) calculate the expected coordinates for cart moves; i've also tested those predictions time and again, at the values i was looking at here they were easily precise enough.
To measure what was going on, i used the simple expedient of pausing the game and stepping through the events via "."; even if you use the dfhack script, i strongly recommend you use this tool as well, the data provided by dfhack are _not_ a substitute for careful observation.
The main work really consisted of forming hypotheses and doing test runs that checked them.
E.g. hypothesis: there's a kind of holding effect that prevents carts from moving their full speed-dictated distance over ramps in some cases. Test is quite simple - if a high-speed cart fails to move off a ramp in one step sometimes, the effect indeed exists. Just make sure that speed before and after the ramp is over 150000.
For the details of the effect, i organised runs so that a first ramp was entered at interesting coordinates, generally starting with a cart going at max ramp speed (2,65 tiles per step, or 2,7 with a little trick). Knowing the speed makes it easy enough knowing which coordinate a cart's at, you don't need dfhack for that. The final test was a top-ramp speed cart entering ramps with a remaining travel distance of 1,1 normal-floor tiles vs. one with a remaining distance of 2,1 tiles. If the break indeed happens 100000 distance after "starting the checks" (here entering ramps), they should behave exactly identically, including a first single-ramp move on the third on-ramp move (i.e. a notably early occurence). That was exactly what happened, the pattern was 100% the same over forty ramps. The likely alternative hypotheses (e.g. "stop happens at end of legal move or tile border", which was my first hypothesis - and which proved wrong) would have resulted in measurably different behaviour at that scale.

2) you need a constant line of nothing but ramps, with a slant change on every second ramp. The checkpoint effect applies when moving from a ramp to a different-slant ramp, and a sufficiently speedy cart can move through a ramp and into the tile beyond it when it has the proper starting coordinates; the checkpoint places a cart at the very end of the tile, which is the best possible starting coordinate for this purpose.
The setup would look like this:

      ▲#
     ▲#
    ▲#
   ▲#
  ▲#
 ▲#
▲#

  ##  ..  ##
══╠╠══╠╠══╠╠
  ..  ##  ..
1 2 3 4 5 6


with the engraving pattern below. A cart going west-to-east at sufficient speed will only touch (checkpoint) tiles 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 and speed through the following same-slant ramps, reaching the next checkpoint in a single move. All ramps are legal because they have wall to the east and potentially also to the north/south, and a down ramp or flat floor to the west, or north, or south (the non-wall link defines slant direction). Ramp slant changes between west and south/north on every other ramp. A checkpoint always neutralises the last step of acceleration accumulated, so there's no speed change at all other than the tiny track friction, as long as the cart keeps going at a rate of one checkpoint per step. The additional alternation between northward and southward slant is because the "lateral" checkpoints don't generate lasting lateral motion, but displace the cart north/south by 5000 distance each time.

I built and tested this thing, allowing a dwarf to travel up 70 z-levels in 35 steps, faster than all-ramp track or free-fall can move an item or unit downwards.
It's a refinement of the all-checkpoints ramp chain which allows moving stuff at one z-level per step, up or down, with nearly no input speed requirement, which is usually also ride-safe. It consists of nothing but ramps, with a slant change on every one of them. The main design issue is that it requires a straight line - ramps and corners don't mix well, corners are always best taken on flats.

Theoretically (didn't bother to test), a transterminal-speed cart could travel three ramps per step when going over all-ramp track that changed slant on every third ramp. The cart must be at more than 283000 speed for this to be possible at all, which can't be achieved with conventional means, and due to the transterminal friction of 10000 per step, a cart can't keep going at that rate for very long.

BTW, "little trick" to get a cart going at 2,7 tiles per step over flat floor: if you accelerate a cart on ramps and then let it pass over onto normal flat floor, you'll lose ~5000 speed to the checkpoint effect. You can get around this by using a cart collision: place a compatible (lower- or same-weight) cart on the "exit tile", i.e. on the flat floor past the last ramp. The incoming cart will push the standing cart "instead" of going off the ramp and passes on the full unchecked speed. This way, the full 2,7 tiles per step max ramp speed can be used on flat floor.
Tested and proven.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 10:10:15 am by Larix »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: My very own Minecart Education Thread. Ten Lessons, now complete.
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 05:26:43 am »

Thank you. *attempts to use it* 'Not a recognized command' 'Plugin does not exist'

..aw. Guess I'll have to go searching.

I asked about tool specifically because I ran into some weird behaviour with trying to make near corner ramp-only upward spiral percussion corridor recently where both off-turn directions from corner ramp to hole resulted in a bouncing back down, whereas that didn't occur with normal track corner. I initially thought it'd be caused by corner ramp sideways acceleration, but with both directions resulting in it made me think that perhaps their ramp-nature centering was off - is it middle of the next tile (sideways ramp for checkpoint) or 50k into the side of next tile?

A quick test with dwarven push onto ╔╗ ramp/track from east shows that the cart goes west in 12 steps (including the first moment where it is z-level up) whether it goes directly onto a bridge or checkpoints through two alternating slant EW ramp/tracks.
 
Alternatively/additionally, falling off directly after a corner resulting in the vehicle getting placed 50k/140k onto the ramp it falls onto, rather than 70k/140k - which I wanted to look at.

A pointless novelty when you can just use straight tracks and corner ramp at most every 10 tiles, but still something to put under "spooky cart" representing how I don't fully understand minecarts yet.

As for that track design: Excellent. But while it works fine in a straight line for going upwards, when going downwards I think the only design for alternating slants every second tile while keeping 1 exit would be using corner ramps. Of course, this would eventually stop the cart, albeit between 5k falling short of 2z speed* and 72k it'd only lose 510 speed per z-level, though at the cost of no longer having that 2 levels per step.

*Speaking of which, shouldn't that be 143k at most, not 160k? The cart checkpoints to the end of previous ramp, so with ramps being 140k long only a little more speed than that should be necessary to cross the next one in a single step; certainly not 20k more. Where does that extra speed get used?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 05:36:59 am by Fleeting Frames »
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