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Author Topic: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)  (Read 3556 times)

MedicInDisquise

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2014, 04:08:35 am »

Considering that the, often rich, mountain homes are the centre of everything Dwarven, I think their govt. would be a mix between feudalism and an ogliarchy. Most local nobles have next-to-none riches while Kings have Golden Thrones and Artifacts around his Throne Room.
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pisskop

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2014, 10:59:39 am »

Considering that the, often rich, mountain homes are the centre of everything Dwarven, I think their govt. would be a mix between feudalism and an ogliarchy. Most local nobles have next-to-none riches while Kings have Golden Thrones and Artifacts around his Throne Room.
When you say next to none you really mean, ' a buttload of locally available' and 'uses their own influence to acquire more?  Even relatively minor nobles can do wounderous things under the correct situations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_at_Halicarnassus

Dwarven monarchs would likely have a very strong army keeping things like wealth centralized, but allowing the player such freedom indicates a relatively relaxed kingdom.
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kontako

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2014, 05:00:50 am »

Thing is though, virtually everything that WertyMiniBot suggests is actually moddable really easily.  Simply create clones of the existing entities and replace the existing nobles with new ones that are organised as you wish them to be. 
   Yeah, good player modding could implement static versions of all the types of government suggested.  If WertyMiniBot wants something like this in right now, he could go the modding forum and with good instruction, have something done within an hour.  The main limitation would be that each government type would be fixed at the start of world-gen.
   I think it would be more interesting to make it so that the type of government can change under certain conditions.  For example feudalism -> monarchy with centralization of power.
   Also, right now the overall type of government doesn't affect the civilization's behavior that much, if at all. (I don't actually know what affect government can have on civ behavior right now, does anyone know?)  I think the best way of changing this would be to allow leader's personalities to influence the civ behavior.  In a monarchy, the choices of a single king shape the entire civ.  In feudalism, the choices of many individual local lords shape the civs choices.  In a republic, the representative/senators make the choices.  This way, both the type of position, and the number of individual's in that position, could cause different civ level behavior.

Yes, I think government systems should be based on the behaviour and history of the civ, especially how they react towards certain conditions. That's a good idea.
I'd imagine the new government systems could be introduced in similar fashion to Lycurgus and his 'Great Rhetra' for the Spartans, via the influence of some great individual or deity. How do you think these political systems should be introduced?

Furthermore what is to be the base for these? - Do all civilisations begin as a tribal autocracy and slowly form a new system, or is it going to be randomised?
Whether or not each race (Such as the Humans, Goblins or Dwarves) 'seem' to be associated with certain political systems is purely biased and unfounded, atleast in my own opinion (How ironic). Personally, I could see a 'Goblin democracy' or 'Dwarven oligarchy' as equal counterparts in contrast to the 'Goblin autocracy' and 'Dwarven democracy' so many of you agree to be the base of such systems. Similar to reality, Human kind may be any of the above - what differs is how the system would be executed, based on cultural and individual preferences.

   I think I would prefer it as a sliding scale of several parameters rather than a straight division between monarchy/autocracy/oligarchy/democracy/etc.  For example, the game could track how different noble positions are weighted relative to each other.
I agree with this concept too. However not so much a slider, more in the category of a radar graph. It's commonly known many systems are often incorporated throughout historic and existing civilisations, etc etc.
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Romegypt

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2014, 06:53:10 am »

Maybe we could inspire the below tableau, resuming Politics of Aristotle, from Wikimedia:



Aristotle-constitutions-2 [GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html), CC-BY-SA-3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/) or CC-BY-SA-2.5-2.0-1.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5-2.0-1.0)], by Mathieu Gauthier-Pilote (User:Mathieugp) (Aristotle's Politics), from Wikimedia Commons


It would provide a concise yet simple way to describe the differetn types of government.

[Edited for keeping with licensing oligations]

This isn't quite right. It says democracy is bad, but he actually said that democracy becomes mob rule. Just to clarify the difference.
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kontako

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2014, 03:26:44 pm »

This isn't quite right. It says democracy is bad, but he actually said that democracy becomes mob rule. Just to clarify the difference.

Pure democracy is a bad thing - one swift kick away from ochlocracy, anarchism and already is subject to plutocracy and popular rule.
Effectively - no one is equal, some are more popular, some are richer and some will always be more influential, basically destroying the concept of a democracy all together.

Actually this isn't a bad idea, a civilisation with pure democratic tendencies will eventually evolve into one of those mentioned above. That is if they don't regulate it like Sparta and Athens (Exiling those which became too popular and influential).
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Bohandas

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2014, 02:26:43 am »

Maybe we could inspire the below tableau, resuming Politics of Aristotle
...

This isn't quite right. It says democracy is bad, but he actually said that democracy becomes mob rule. Just to clarify the difference.

I'm not familar with the Aristotle dissertation in question, but Are you sure that you're thinking of Aristotle, and not Machiavelli? Machiavelli recorded a similar theory (towards the beginn9ng of the Discourses') that definitely did differentiate democracy from mob rule/ochlocracy.

Having not read the Aristotle piece, I don't know which of you  is correct about its contemts, but I'm inclined to believe that he might have said that democracy is exactly the same as mob rule due to the fact that, though brilliant, he was a bit of a crackpot when it came to pretty much anything outside of a limited number of fields relating to mathematics and pure logic.


---------------------------------------

Also, on an unrelated (and for the most part purely academic) note, since we're dividing governments up by the number of people ruling, what about governments where there is no ruler, not in the sense of anarchy where there is no government either, but in the sense of trying to establish a pure theocracy in the real world, a government where the ruler does not exist (or is completely absent and detached to the to such a point as makes no practical difference from non existence)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 02:37:18 am by Bohandas »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2014, 09:15:36 am »

Pure democracy is a bad thing - one swift kick away from ochlocracy, anarchism and already is subject to plutocracy and popular rule.
Effectively - no one is equal, some are more popular, some are richer and some will always be more influential, basically destroying the concept of a democracy all together.

Actually this isn't a bad idea, a civilisation with pure democratic tendencies will eventually evolve into one of those mentioned above. That is if they don't regulate it like Sparta and Athens (Exiling those which became too popular and influential).

Pure democracy is not a bad thing.  It simply cannot exist because in order for it to exist people would have to take reputation into no account and have completely accurate information about everything in the society in order for each individual citizen to genuinely make a decision rather than being someone elses political cattle. 

There is no reason however that the appearance of a democracy would not be mantained indefinately because those who are really in charge (the political cattle-herders) find it conveniant that nobody notices that power actually descends from them, so their opponants will leave them alone and only bump off the herd-leaders, whether by electoral or other means. 

Any state of affairs where the government actually controls the information and the economy, that is a state of affairs where those who hold the supreme power are the official rulers is stamped as a dictatorship using their own undemocratic power and democratic ideology.  Thus 'people' are herded overthrow it in a show of democracy which is actually a civil war betwen two rival groups of elites, the 'public' elite and the 'private elite' neither of which are the mythical People of Democracy. 

Given the communist nature of the economy in Dwarf Fortress, there is no illusion of democracy possible because the government's economic mechanism determines the ideological production and it rationally does so in order to glorify/strengthen the government in the eyes of the people.  A 'free and fair election' is not possible because the government controls the information about itself meaning that is will always be able to pursuade all the individual people to vote for it. 

All opposition is internal to the government, meaning that there is no real opposition party to contend with the government just loyalists and rebels.  The ability to support an openly manifesting rebel faction within the ruling party if there is one is something that exists within a dictatorship.

Also, on an unrelated (and for the most part purely academic) note, since we're dividing governments up by the number of people ruling, what about governments where there is no ruler, not in the sense of anarchy where there is no government either, but in the sense of trying to establish a pure theocracy in the real world, a government where the ruler does not exist (or is completely absent and detached to the to such a point as makes no practical difference from non existence)

Anarchy is actually essentially non-functional in the game (except for kobolds apparantly), I have actually tried creating one.  The reason is that without anyone central dictating military goals the civilization cannot ever make peace with it's enemies.  This means they continue to wage war until they are wiped out; but they cannot ever go on the offensive without a central government to command them to do so.

It all makes sense though when you think of it.  If there is an anarchy and a government side by side, the government will always ultimately crush the anarchy because there is nobody to negotiate with that can actually command the others to abide my any treaty or agreement about the borders of the state.  At the same time there is nobody to command them to organise the occupation of the government's territory, because if a small band of anarchists decides to independantly kill off the government in a place, a new government can be created to rule that place when they go home.
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smjjames

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2014, 09:59:25 am »

Actually, it seems like the Kobolds have a tribal chieftian or perhaps council of elders type government, or at least it seems like that's what they'd have.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Alternative government in civilizations. (Long)
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2014, 10:33:57 am »

Actually, it seems like the Kobolds have a tribal chieftian or perhaps council of elders type government, or at least it seems like that's what they'd have.

They have no defined leaders in the raws and no way to produce any with no variable positions.  Elves outside the capital city have anarchy at the local level, having no site levels leaders at all.
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