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Author Topic: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and room overhaul[!!LONG!!]  (Read 19262 times)

Enchiridion

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Currently workshops and rooms come in the forms of buildings. This means that in order to have your dwarf complete a task, like the making of a wooden bed, he has to simply take a lump of material, be it a bar of soap or a block of steel or some other random puss that happened to be semi solid, and construct a strange 3X3 tile construction, seemingly out of nowhere. Then he will begin working in this building and produce whatever you ask him to without any tools. This also means that before a dining room can be assigned, or a bedroom/dormitory created, it must first have a bed(and your dwarves will instead sleep in the rain)

This to me seems rather gamey and very much unfitting for DF. I would like to suggest a different method of making rooms to live in and workshops for dwarves to turn raw materials into useful objects without the use of such abstract constructions.

The idea is to replace rooms that are linked to buildings(bedrooms to bed's, dining rooms to a single table) and workshops(which are rooms inside a building) with zones that can be fulfilled over time. This means that many rooms will not only be more intricate and full of meaningfull interactions for your dwarves, they will also be combineable or made sepperate for singular functions(jewlers shop for just cutting gems, farmer's workshop for just processing plants into fibers and thread.)


Workshop areas!
This basically means that workshops will now be designated the same way that zones are. And with rather similar functionality.
In order to build a workshop you would have to select an area. A workshop area can be designated anywhere. Each area, depending on it's type of workshop, will require certain tools in it.

This means that if someone were to construct a masons workshop, then optimally it would need a table, a chair, a retainer with a bunch of tools suck as chisels, hammers, rock saws etc. However, the difference is that not every workshop action would require every single tool. This means that as soon as you have a single chisel and hammer and a lump of stone, a dwarf can begin working on a simpler construction such as a table or a slab, whereas further tools would be necessary for jobs such as "create stone grate" or the like.

An image to demonstrate the idea:

the three rooms are meant to be a masons shop, an ironwork and a kitchen. As you can see(or cannot, in which case I appologise deeply. The tools used to create this did not quite have the same tileset as DF) they each have multiple tables and chairs(represented by "n", tile was missing) as well as many other tools that currently do not exist in the game or have a function.

They can also contain stockpiles in them, as in the above example is the case with the masons workshop and the kitchen.
Some explanation as to what I imagined in the picture
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This means that many workshops that are currently necessary, for instance the wood furnace, ashery and soap makers workshop, can now be combined into one zone that has the necessary tools to create soap directly from tallow and ash or anything else(if you are really that into making soap, that is. its ok, it's cool. Im ok with that. Im ok with that if you're ok with that, bro.)

Workshop management, settings and UI.
As far as traversing the menus and build orders, the workshop zones would function much the same as workshops from a UI point of view. This means that Q will still locate the nearest "workshop"(zone) and the player will be given options from there on for new tasks and so fourth.

All buildings in the workshop are placed by the player, and each workshop would have a settings page where the player could define what tools the workshop should contain, what tasks it should be allowed to preform, and what dwarves are allowed to work there.

And an example of newly created zone and how task creation works(left: q near workshop. right: after pressing a):

as you can see, there would be a great deal of clarity. All available tasks would be displayed, and all unavailable tasks would also be listed along with indicators as to why they cannot be completed.


An example q menu near a mason's workshop and the "workstations" sub-window:

Notice that the Workstations menu on the right lists all possible areas where a dwarf can preform a certain task and also lists the amount of tools and how everything can be regulated. This gives an idea of how many tasks of what kind can be done at once.
Through monitoring of such menus, the player can decide what modifications to make so that more tasks of a specific kind can be preformed.

Personal workshops and revamp of personal areas!
As you know, many nobles require rooms such as studies and items such as weapon racks and armor stands and cabinets. However, they currently serve little to no purpose. With a system where areas can be designated as workshop areas or the likes, some nobles would now require personal workshops, or other areas or both. Some nobles may be particularly whimsy and simply request a non-specific empty workshop area and fill it up with tools to produce and tinker in their spare time.

An example image of what that may look like:
Here there is a noble bedroom(or a regular one, if that's how you roll in your fortress) with two rooms connected to it. Both have been assigned to the noble. The one on the left is his personal library, which contains a table and chair, some chests and a lot of bookshelves. The room to the right is the noble's workshop that contains many tools and items he himself has gathered there. In the image he is more focused towards metalcrafting, but this may be anything from cooking, to jemcrafting, to clothesmaking to anything in between.

This would mean that many noble mandates, such as "obtain 1 iron anvil" or "craft hammer" or "collect X webs" or "smelt copper ore" or "create glass whatever" could now be tied together with their personal lives and tasks that they preform. A noble with aspirations or a fondness towards metal-crafting may request ores or tools, while a cook(heaven help you) may require ingredients, recipes(this I believe is planned.) or certain tools for cooking and use in their personal workspaces.


The bedroom(added 10/27/2015)

Or as I will eventually call it, the living quarters.

All that personality stuff that a dwarf is said to possess, his personality, his interests and dislikes, these things should be expressed in some way or another, and what better way to show it than personal projects. This is treading on some seriously slippery territory(mainly the private property question, though I believe that zones offer a solution to this as well), however I think that as it stands, bedrooms are the one rare occasion where a dwarf actually has a place of his own where he can go to relax from the rest of the fortress. It would only be fitting that each bedroom might contain different items. The bedroom of a dwarf who deeply indulges in reading may be littered with books and parchments and scrolls, while the bedroom of a dwarf who enjoys music may have an instrument or two, a room where a child lives would have toys while some more studious dwarves without status may decide to try their best to furnish their bedroom into a study or a place of meditation. A very glutinous dwarf would have food lying around all over his bedroom. Basically, this ties in less with the whole <zones> idea than with some expansion on fortress dweller behavior and AI and things. HOWEVER, this brings up the question, if a regular dwarf suddenly wants his room to contain a table or a bookshelf or a still or an anvil or anything, how would these dwarves go about getting them? They cannot just go and pick them up. This is why I suggest that a new menu be in place, as well as a new function for the bookkeeper. When a dwarf desires something to be his, he will queue a request to the fortress bookkeeper, who will then consult the "property availability" menu, where he will then tell the dwarf if he may or may not take a certain item. It may not be a perfect fix, but I somewhat like the idea of giving the bookkeeper a purpose.

Fun concept: This also allows for "theft" to happen internally within the fortress, adding greatly to the fun.



"Economy" zones
The game currently does not have an even remotely functional internal economy, however, it does have a semi functional external barter based economy and even as it is, many semi-economic areas can be created to interact with the outside world.


Taverns

Taverns are places where travelers stop to rest, have a drink or eat a meal. Taverns are planned but their mechanics are not quite yet planned in depth.

A tavern could be created by setting up a zone and assigning a person as a tavern keeper(noble class) who would consort with the travelers and hear their requests and demands. A tavern would also have servants who would serve the travelers and visitors. It would require a stockpile that would contain prepared food and drink and probably bedrooms that would be considered a part of the tavern zone and tables for eating.


example of very basic tavern with just tables, guards, servants, counter and stairs to stockpile(not in image)

Curiously enough, there are a couple of colors that are not used to specify a profession(these are pink and light baby blue... yes, those two.) and it is possible that along with taverns and such jobs, there might be a few new professions such as servants. In the previous image, I used pink to indicate a servant dwarf.

I suppose that it would be entirely possible to set up a price for all tavern services. The price would most likely be barter, as coins have historically been a bad idea for the game(or at least have not worked out), so there would probably be a list of items that are usable for trade and the declared worth of such items in proportion to goods and services offered by the tavern. This would make taverns into a form of specific item income(The travelers are a story for a different thread though).


Trade Depot

As it stands, a trade depot is a strange abstract construction that has one of the simply exploits. As it stands it has some serious bugs . I proppose that this also be removed(as any other building, actually) and replaced by a zone for it's purpose. The trade area:

Simply put, it is a place that has two free zone stockpiles(
This category currently does not exist. It means that a stockpile is at the complete mercy of the dwarves working in the area.), one for your items, and the other for the merchant's. Some restraints for their mounts/pets/haulers/caravan pullers and not much else.


Mandated markets/stores

As with the implementation of noble mandated or required rooms, a new type of room that nobles would use is a personal shop or market.
Simply put, nobles that produce or mandate certain goods will use these rooms as shops and stores for travelers and adventurers. The items exchanged are technically already owned by the nobles and are mandated or created from mandates that the noble puts forth, so he cannot just take an already existing adamantine sword and sell it for a =*<<kitten skull>>*=.



Collective rooms, living quarters, dining rooms and other social rooms.
Instead of creating a bed or a table and then creating a room out of one of those objects, players would designate a collective zone and make it fir one or more subcategories(some are just planned and currently do not exist, but you get the idea):
  • Living quarters
  • Dining room
  • Dormitory
  • Sculpture garden
  • Office/Study
  • Library
  • Hall (specifically for meetings and events)
  • Well
  • Shrine
  • Temple
  • Barracks
  • Archery range
Zones like these can be combined, so you may make a barracks with an archery range with a dining room in one, and assign it to a squad, so that your military squad can train as much as possible and almost never have to leave the barracks unless necessary. Overall this is here just to completely get away from making rooms from a single building with the q-r function.


Schools, daycare and conditioning the young.

As of now, the young are simply peasants without a cause, and babies are a burden. Schools, daycares and other such rooms are needed to not only keep the parents from taking babies into battle, but also to condition the future of your fortress the way you goddamn want it to be. A daycare would be a room with beds and toys(Yes, they would finally have a purpose) where a child would be taken care of by a nanny or some other care related profession of dwarf

A school would probably contain chairs and stools, but depending on the regime set it may also have beds for keeping the buggers inside.
The true value of a school would be to alter a dwarfs mental state. All the way from the statues of war scenery to the permitted(allowed,forbidden,mandatory) literature that dwarven children would read to the personality traits and past of the teacher keeping watch over them. All these elements will determine what your dwarves want, how they behave and what they wish to achieve in life. Statues of soldiers may cause them to aspire to become great soldiers, training with wooden weapons might help them already get some skills going while they are still young.

A school seems a rather complicated structure, as it may involve within it several other workshop systems. Suppose you wanted your dwarves to grow up to become soldiers, then the school would have a training grounds. Suppose the goal was to create masterful smiths, then there would be masonry stations. If the goal were to create explorers and adventurous kindred spirits(Which currently do not exist, but heck!) then you would let them read stories and myths of the world beyond.

Fun concept: schools are where feuds and friendships are formed the strongest in young dwarves. This would greatly add to the fun.



Extra rooms and changed rooms
Libraries
Libraries in real life are for the perpetuation and preservation of knowledge, art and culture. As it stands, most sentient creatures have a personality/psyche, and there's about to be a rewrite of that. I expect that soon dwarves will no longer be born with all their likes and dislikes and associations. I suspect that many such likes and dislikes, interests and knowledge will be obtained from either other dwarves or libraries.
 
 As it stands, a library would be a room that would contain bookshelves and cases that contain books and parchments(and probably also tables and chairs). Dwarves would go to libraries and read books based on some stats related to interest, intellect and curiosity etc.

 
 The contents of mundane books and parchments:
  • skill knowledge
  • maps and area locations
  • poems
  • prayers to the gods
  • knowledge on gods, beasts and creatures of the night
  • recipes
  • records
Contents of non-mundane parchments and books(these mostly are merely conceptual and there to give you an idea of what is possible to store. I wont go into the mechanics of using these objects.):
  • rituals
  • knowledge of immortality
  • knowledge on other planes
  • prophecies
  • potion recipes
  • enchantments
  • incantations
Fun concept: If a dwarf with higher intellect has a higher tendency to go to a library and learn things in books, then that means that he would have more knowledge and in turn be more intelligent by nature of his AI.

Offices/Studies
 
Studies are places of, well, study. As of now, we do not have much use for them. Basic studies would mostly remain unchanged(a place to sit and a place to put down your stuff that you will study). However, as time comes, many situations may occur where some object, text, letter, or any other information carrying object(corpse? well oh my) must be studied, and that is where studies become important. A study would be a place where anyone can go to examine objects and texts. Adding more things to studies quite literally changes what objects can be examined and worked on.

 
 For example:
  • a traction bench can allow someone to analyze a corpse(and perhaps thus determine what or who killed it)
  • a lense stand can allow for the verification of documents(messages, letters) and detection of other small clues
  • a drill stand can help research some stone/wooden forms and objects(if there ever comes a time when the materials objects and layers of rock are not instantly recognizable)
  • a container and some ink is all you need to start writing.

 perhaps one day research/alchemy can take place at a study....
 
 
Fun concept: A study with a telescope and an open roof/glass roof with a clear view into the sky could be an astronomers observatory. Where dwarves study the stars.
 

Please comment what you think about this and discuss. I hope Toady notices this and I hope you enjoy the idea. I will try to update it further with more images and further explanations and ideas. For now I am out of time.


Thank you for reading.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 02:29:43 pm by Enchiridion »
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Enchiridion

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Re: Workshop and other <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2014, 01:44:15 pm »

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Skullsploder

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Re: Workshop and other <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2014, 03:07:56 pm »

This is a brilliant idea. It will be tough to implement, but it's brilliant. Only a couple of issues that I'd like to know more about:

Multiple dwarves using a workshop. How will the amount of dwarves that can use a zone be decided?
How varied and basic are the tools that are allowed? (back to the stone age where a rock is used to make sharp rocks which are used to make most everything else. Would rocks be usable as shaping tools?)
UI. The q menu is actually pretty good as far as UI in DF goes (q-a, select workshop-new order), and I'd hate to see it replaced by something clumsy like i-W-o-a for zones-workshop-orders-new order. True, you get around this with the manager, but it could make the early game more annyoying.

A few suggestions:

Make it so that you can specify exact tools to be put in a workshop zone. That way you can force a workshop zone to only take certain manager orders (something that takes a lot of effort to get around atm...)
Replace rooms designated from furniture at the same time. It would be nice if all types of rooms and workshops were in the same category.
The trade depot should be a zone within an economy zone where merchants will attempt to unpack their goods. Really, it's degrading to have to peddle your wares off a mule's back! Larger, more opulent, more helpful (restraints for animals and stuff) economy zones and trade depots should attract more merchants and more goods.

Other than that I think it's all great. I particularly like the idea of nobles requesting materials so they can produce goods for their own amusement, rather than arbitrarily demanding that the other dwarves make them, and overall this makes waaaaaay more sense than the current arbitrary workshop system.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 03:10:53 pm by Skullsploder »
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Witty

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Re: Workshop and other <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2014, 03:12:07 pm »

Great idea, love to see this replace the current system.
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Bumber

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Re: Workshop and other <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2014, 03:41:38 pm »

It's planned.
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Enchiridion

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Re: Workshop and other <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2014, 04:08:39 pm »

quote
The Depot part was sort of already there but I did add a workshop management section. I think the Q selection functionality should stay though. It makes things easy to access.

It's planned.
If you refer to this:
Quote
Bloat19, FLUID WORKSHOPS, (Future): More fluid multi-purpose workshops, where you can do simple tasks in a general purpose shop, but you can add tools to make more specialized objects with bonuses.
then yes, the use of tools is planned XD. But the whole zone replacing a building in general, as far as I know, hasn't been planned. Correct me if I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 11:45:56 am by Enchiridion »
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Knight Otu

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 08:46:32 am »

It's been mentioned as a possibility for how workshops might change, way back when the hospital was introduced:

Quote from: Toady One, devlog of 03/16/09
As you might want to gather and treat the wounded without the benefit of tables or beds (due to resource constraints or otherwise), I went with an activity zone for the hospital. I've added a few options to activity zone placement to make that a little easier (they can overlap now, you can flow them out like rooms, and delete a single zone regardless of overlaps). This'll also be a good test for using zones for things like dynamic workshops (way) later if things go that direction, as hospital zones will need to manage several buildings. It might also be useful for some military applications for this release.

There should be other quotes about this, too, but I haven't found them yet. Either way, you've put a lot of thought into your post, which is definitely helpful even for planned features.
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Enchiridion

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 11:17:52 am »

quote
Heh, Thanks. I searched the cores and the planned features but didn't find anything, I didn't check the devlogs *facepalm*.
Now I feel like a dunce. I really liked making this though and I still want to update it ever slightly(with knowledge in mind that this is semi-sort-of-planned) but I don't want to seem redundant or cover anything everyone already knows.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 11:44:50 am by Enchiridion »
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Enchiridion

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2014, 09:19:41 am »

I just really enjoy making DF concepts while listening to lovecraft audiobooks. I did one for furnaces and the workings of pipes and the like and I might add it sometime later.
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smjjames

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2014, 09:33:04 am »

Even if it's a planned thing, giving your own ideas on it is still good.
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Enchiridion

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and rooms.
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2014, 11:44:22 am »

Even if it's a planned thing, giving your own ideas on it is still good.
Well thanks for the encouragement then. I added a studies and libraries section.
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Vattic

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and room overhaul[!!LONG!!]
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2014, 12:36:49 pm »

Nice thread. PTW.
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GavJ

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and room overhaul[!!LONG!!]
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2014, 01:04:19 pm »

Workshop areas sound conceptually powerful and realistic and stuff, but they also sound extraordinarily more confusing for newbies, in a game that is already infamous for being like 10x more confusing for newbies than anything else.

"want stone stuff? Build a modular stone shop" = super intuitive.
"Want stone stuff? Well you make a zone that can overlap with other ones and share this venn diagram of tools, the number and type of which you have to look up from this big table here and then craft them in other zones which need their own venn diagrams of tools to make those tools, and..." = wtfrunsawayscreaming

If you can come up with a powerfully flexible way to scale the complexity with experience (by options) without resulting in two totally different gameplay experience, then it could work. Also, even for advanced players, as much as possible needs to be automated, which is a non trivial set of algorithms here.
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Enchiridion

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and room overhaul[!!LONG!!]
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2014, 01:36:55 pm »

Workshop areas sound conceptually powerful and realistic and stuff, but they also sound extraordinarily more confusing for newbies, in a game that is already infamous for being like 10x more confusing for newbies than anything else.

"want stone stuff? Build a modular stone shop" = super intuitive.
"Want stone stuff? Well you make a zone that can overlap with other ones and share this venn diagram of tools, the number and type of which you have to look up from this big table here and then craft them in other zones which need their own venn diagrams of tools to make those tools, and..." = wtfrunsawayscreaming

If you can come up with a powerfully flexible way to scale the complexity with experience (by options) without resulting in two totally different gameplay experience, then it could work. Also, even for advanced players, as much as possible needs to be automated, which is a non trivial set of algorithms here.
Im cetain it wouldn't be THAT complicated. If anything, it might be easier to understand why processes happen and how they come about.

For instance, you want stone stuffs?

Create workshop area -> assign mason's workshop. Bingo you have aworkshop.
Now you just q over it and realize and see a screen that looks something like this:

The "A: New task" stands out. When he presses that, something like this pops up:


Now it has a list of tasks you can preform right now and a list of tasks that you cannot yet preform. There's even indicators that show what exactly is the problem and pressing "v" gives even more information about the task.

Does that really seem complex? And if so then what would you propose to make it better?

Also I went "wtfrunsawayscreaming" the first time I played DF. I remember I accidentally set the whole area to channel and didnt know wtf was happening. I knew that the U lists units and I noticed that some had little blue arrows pointing down but I didnt know wtf was going on. Only through people like Captnduck did I learn how to play the game. I enjoyed the process of learning very much.
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GavJ

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Re: <ZONES> to replace workshop buildings and room overhaul[!!LONG!!]
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2014, 02:42:55 pm »

Yeah the interface can be simple. The complex part is "no tools? What tools? How do I make them?" and then it turns out that to make them you need some other work area that doesn't allow you to make those tools until it has a separate set of tools, blah blah.

The info you have there is a good start, though. "V" is not ideal, I'd prefer to have two columns at once, but anyway, depending on what sort of information you give there is mostly where it becomes doable vs. outrageously confusing.

if there's some intuitive way to track down the entire set of things I need to get my end result, then that's what makes it not too confusing. As in a list, all in one place, tabbed, or something, like:

stone grate
    masonry labor
    upgraded level 3 masons shop
        1 stone mat
        masonry labor
        upgraded level 2 masons shop
            1 stone mat
            masonry labor

    1 stone mat
    class 2 chisel (not consumed)
        level 1 metal forge
        level 2 metal mat
            smelter
            smelting labor
            fuel
                wood burning furnace
                wood burning labor
                wood
            iron (option A)
                smelter
                iron ore
                flux
                fuel
                    wood burning furnace
                    wood burning labor
                    wood
                smelting labor (and similar for other metal options, strand extraction, etc. for the two below)
            bronze (option B)
            adamantine (option C)

        metalworking labor


The stuff in italics (requirements for products you already have) should have a toggle or something to show them (hidden or dropdown menu by default). So you can still brush up on the chain if you want, but it doesn't clog you with non immediately pressing needs.

However, if you order 10 of something, and only have 5 intermediate products, then the requirements for more intermediate products should by default become visible again.

And of course, terms like "level 2" should be avoided like the plague, in favor of descriptive, immersive terms. But I don't have time to come up with all those for just an example.

On top of all that, any trivial decisions should be automated. Not really directly relevant to this specific suggestion, but part of making more complex production lines.  For example, if you don't have anybody with a needed labor enabled in your fort, by default the game should just pick somebody who is lazing, for instance, and enable that labor. Possibly with a passive non-pausing alert that it did so. And an option to turn off that feature for advanced users. And/or workshops should be auto-upgraded to the next levels if they only require trivial materials like stones etc. (unless you turn off that feature). And so on. Which removes 75% of the confusion even with complicated trees like this, for newbies.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 02:56:21 pm by GavJ »
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Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.
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