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[Enchiridion]

So what you're suggesting is that there should be a way to see EXACTLY what is necessary to produce any given item. right?
And that if I say, lacked a metal chisel, a dwarf should automatically make it?

Well as for the "necessary to produce" list, I think that's a great idea. Just a few notes - in order to create something, you will at most need is a workshop and three types of things: tools(chisels,hammers), construction(furnace, grinder) and resources(stone,wood, metal). As for the "level 2 workshop"(which you said to avoid, and I totally agree.), that idea becomes obsolete. All you need is just a workshop.

Also, in a menu there are several items that would just repeat. Im sure a collapsible menu could be optional, but I think there is also an alternative where all items in every process of the tree are numbered and items with prequisite items simply have the numbers of those items next to them(bellow them?)

example:

metal sword

• mallet = [5][1;2;3;4;6][8]
• furnace = [5][1;2;3;4;6][2;6;7]
• anvil = [5][1;2;3;4;6][2;6;7]
• metal bars = [2;6;11]
• stone
• fuel = [2;8][2;9][2;10]
• clay
• wood
• butimunous coal
• lignite
• metal ore

Yes it's missing color coding, what would be consumed and what wouldn't. I may make a better mockup tomorrow.
does this seem helpful in the slightest?

Im going to go to sleep. See you tomorrow.

[GavJ]

Number codes are pretty blech, but there's probably some solution in between ours.

Auto-chisel-making: maybe. There's a continuum that exists as to how aggressive it will come across as being to automate different things.  Building a furnace upgrade when you have 1000 spare stone sitting around and all it needs is a stone is silly not to automate. Whereas making an anvil upgrade when it uses all of your remaining iron is not trivial at all.

Ideally, you'd want some clever algorithm that takes into account current surplus materials, versus what it would take to do nitty gritty things like auto upgrades, and come up with an aggressiveness score, which then gets compared to a slider for threshold in the player's options menu. Starts at a low threshold for newbies.

Alternatively (or both): you could wait until somebody actually orders something to be made that requires upgrades, and have a (Default on) option of the game just quietly doing the upgrades or making the tools necessary for your final product in order without bothering you about it. But only for currently ordered things.  This of course removes certainty about your exact stocks, so if you're advanced and anal retentive, you can turn it off later.

[assasin]

Of course one would need to take into account the assigning of jobs to these zones (assuming one is using the manager). So when one is created I'd like to see an interface similar to a stockpile (which would automatically filter based on the tools and constructions already in the workshop) allowing you to specify exactly what you want that zone to do. (The way I invision it working is pretty much the exact same as a stockpile, but instead of stuff getting hauled to it it'd just enable or disable what the manager (or upgraded system) can assign it to make). It'd be more flexible than just assigning from a limited list like "Kitchen, masons shop" while not having the irritating randomness of having a cook go to a carpenters shop just to use the work table to slice some vegetables. Of course added functionality like skill levels or whatever could also be added. The advantage to this is that this way you (combined with custom labour profiles) kinda make custom professions/limit hauling times/etc.. A masons shop next to the grave yard with everything but slabs and coffins disabled,   

Of course doing this multiple times could get annoying so I guess there'd have to be a tool to make custom profiles which can be saved and maybe for new players an inbuilt set of custom profiles.

[GavJ]

The vast majority of players would simply want their workshops turned on for every job, including newbies.

[Enchiridion]

The vast majority of players would simply want their workshops turned on for every job, including newbies.

I would have to agree.

For now I am less concerned with job permission management and more focused on the whole "tool production tree" thing. I have an interesting model in the works. Will post more after school.

[Antsan]

I like assassin's idea. For newbies you can still just make premade workshop settings.

[Enchiridion]

So regarding the resource tree. There is an alternative where tools are divided into production levels.
Basically, to produce tool a and b you need nothing more than a basic resource, but to produce tool c you need tool a and b and a basic resource. However, to create tool d you need tool c and a, but for simplicity's sake, the only true prequisite tool for tool d is tool c, because tool a is already in the production tree of tool c.

example:

The tree in the top of the image is a simplified tree where recurring objects and tools are hidden. The bottom mess is actually a summary of all the processes(Yes, I know the bucket is missing a line from the raw resource image. Also, immagine that everything that would need stone/wood/ore to produce just gets it. If I added those lines then the image would be unreadable. Just goes to show that there really needs to be a good way of showing the process.)

As for Job limitations, restriction, and profiles. That would and should all be possible. I suspect that the functionality would be rather simple. Select workshop -> profile -> stockpile like menu of what can be produced -> permit or forbid whatever you want -> optionally save for loading later. Or am I missing something?

[assasin]

For now I am less concerned with job permission management and more focused on the whole "tool production tree" thing. I have an interesting model in the works. Will post more after school.

Its just a small addition. Not really too important but might be useful as things get more automated in the future.

As for Job limitations, restriction, and profiles. That would and should all be possible. I suspect that the functionality would be rather simple. Select workshop -> profile -> stockpile like menu of what can be produced -> permit or forbid whatever you want -> optionally save for loading later. Or am I missing something?

Pretty much. Like I said its just a small addition.

The tree in the top of the image is a simplified tree where recurring objects and tools are hidden. The bottom mess is actually a summary of all the processes(Yes, I know the bucket is missing a line from the raw resource image. Also, immagine that everything that would need stone/wood/ore to produce just gets it. If I added those lines then the image would be unreadable. Just goes to show that there really needs to be a good way of showing the process.)

I'm sure everyone here understands the basic idea. It'd definitely be nice to see part of the production remove the need to trade for an anvil. Though realistically if you're doing a minimalist start with no tools on embark it should be probably start with knapping tools from boulders on the ground and fallen sticks off trees. I'd expect in most cases you'd bring at least a mallet and chisel with you. Maybe an adze for carpenters and tools other common starting professions like you'd bring an axe and pickaxe for woodcutters and miners.

[GavJ]

You can use a wooden stump as an anvil, it's not a big deal. It's just way more annoying, takes longer and more energy (some is lost to the wood from your arm) and reheatings, and won't make the same sharp, crisp shapes. But just to make another metal anvil or some maces or something, who cares?

And if you can get your hands on quartzite, it'd probably be almost as good as iron for an anvil.

It would be appropriate to allow all these things, but just have them wear out sooner + limit the maximum quality levels achieveable. Possibly also limit item types that can be made from extremely complicated things like metal instruments or whatever from being made on wooden stumps.

[Skullsploder]

I'm sure everyone here understands the basic idea. It'd definitely be nice to see part of the production remove the need to trade for an anvil. Though realistically if you're doing a minimalist start with no tools on embark it should be probably start with knapping tools from boulders on the ground and fallen sticks off trees. I'd expect in most cases you'd bring at least a mallet and chisel with you. Maybe an adze for carpenters and tools other common starting professions like you'd bring an axe and pickaxe for woodcutters and miners.

You can use a wooden stump as an anvil, it's not a big deal. It's just way more annoying, takes longer and more energy (some is lost to the wood from your arm) and reheatings, and won't make the same sharp, crisp shapes. But just to make another metal anvil or some maces or something, who cares?

And if you can get your hands on quartzite, it'd probably be almost as good as iron for an anvil.

It would be appropriate to allow all these things, but just have them wear out sooner + limit the maximum quality levels achieveable. Possibly also limit item types that can be made from extremely complicated things like metal instruments or whatever from being made on wooden stumps.

Or you could come over and support the innovations thread to enable stone-age starts, including all the technology that makes an appearance between the stone age and medieval times

[Enchiridion]

Son of a

[assasin]

Or you could come over and support the innovations thread to enable stone-age starts, including all the technology that makes an appearance between the stone age and medieval times

I wasn't talking about stone age starts. I was talking about production lines starting from a logical source. Obviously there'd be some overlap but that's no reason to leave one idea half completed.

[Bumber]

You can use a wooden stump as an anvil, it's not a big deal. It's just way more annoying, takes longer and more energy (some is lost to the wood from your arm) and reheatings, and won't make the same sharp, crisp shapes. But just to make another metal anvil or some maces or something, who cares?

You could just cast a metal anvil in a dirt mold.

[Enchiridion]

Perhaps A tool list should be next in line of production?

EDIT : Added a rough daycare and schools section under collective rooms.

[Madman198237]

I love this idea.
Excellent idea.
Just make sure you draw the line appropriately-forcing a fortress to start out at stone-age tech is not reasonable, sorry. You can assume that the dwarves would, as a matter of course, come supplied with basic tools.
Modern tools are made using machines originally made by tools made by previous generations, and this pattern carries back to the first few creations from the first prehistoric humans.
I think you get the point.
We really on the tools and creations of earlier generations.
Some of these starting points, such as pressure-flaked stone chisels and whatnot, assume that you just dumped 7 naked, tool-less, horribly unprepared dwarves with nothing more than the beards on their chins, forcing them to start with no tools.
But I still love the idea of BETTER WORKSHOPS and workshop zones.
SCREW YOU, FORGE-AND-ONLY-ANVIL-HOGGING-MOODS!!!!!