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[flabort]

One more PFP before I get home and can answer everything (else) better.

Jim I am surprised you did not put me instead of Varee as #1 for 'guy you want to be SK', given your answer about what kind of player. Since I enjoy gambits in high-power-games.

As to why I'm asking about what everyone wants for christdorfmas, it's to see who's naughty or nice. But everyone is reluctant (so far) to give me any ideas, so I don't have a list to check once, let alone twice.

So why WOULD you care about LYLO/MYLO, other than my asking? I got the impression from the rest of that answer that you DIDN'T.

[Jim Groovester]

But I don't care about milo or lylo.

I expect random bullshit to take me out before I get there. I also expect random bullshit out of my control to either make me win or lose.

As to why I'm asking about what everyone wants for christdorfmas, it's to see who's naughty or nice. But everyone is reluctant (so far) to give me any ideas, so I don't have a list to check once, let alone twice.

So, if somebody wants free stuff are they naughty and if they don't are they nice? What if they just want free stuff?

[flabort]

Mastahcheese [1] How often should one revise their opinions on someone? [2] Should a revision be drastic, and [3] should past opinions have a say in new opinions?

[1] As often as possible, whenever anything comes up that could alter it.
[2] Not neccassarily, no. It should be more "double checking to see what's changed", not just revising for the sake of revising.
[3] I think so, yeah. First impressions mean a lot.

What are your opinions on such things?

[1] At least once or twice an in-game day, but not so often that you are being wishy washy.
[2] Only if a flip makes it drastic.
[3] Yes.
So, not much different from yours.

Cheeetar Which is scummier: Lurking day 2, or not answering questions day 1?

This is a good question. Not answering questions is more a sign of actual inactivity or newbieness than any calculated move- it costs nothing to answer a question, and it's fairly easy to not incriminate yourself too much. I'd say lurking day 2 is more of a scumtell than not answering questions day 1.

This seems fair. I like this assessment.

Who do you feel you can read best right now? Who haven't you played with before and what do you plan on doing to get acquainted with their playstyle?

GayArchaea's first game was the one I ran, iirc, so I haven't played with him, though I have seen him play. I don't remember playing with SBC, although I might have, and SBC was in my game too. I don't remember playing with Vector.

I feel like out of all the players in this game Varee is the easiest for me to read.

To get to know the players better, I plan on multiple interactions through RVS, and further questioning throughout the game.

Jack A T Would you lie as scum? As a third party?

flabort: If it would help me achieve my wincon, yes.  Which of your 15 RVS questions do you think will gain you useful information?  Why?  Of what sort?  Which ones do you think will not?

Flabort: I say roll randomly for who gets it. Causes Lols.

flabort: This.  Also, I'm surprised you have such a specific order of expected effectiveness for your RVS questions.  I'd like an explanation of that order when you can give one.

Yup, I was planning on that. Here:

Jack AT: More later, but the order of effectiveness I expect from my RVS questions:
1] Who wants a gift? I need to prep it ahead of time, during the day, so I can give it during night, so (new) role names!
2] Tiruin
3] SBC
4] Vector
5] Cheeetar
6] Mastah
7] 4mask
8] Persus
9] GA
10] Varee
11] Toaster
12] Jim
13] Shakerag
14] TDS
15] Jack AT

Orange: Very little information expected, these players tend to be able to hold a conversation on very little starting material.
Green: These questions I expect lots of information from, for the reason of I don't know these players as well as I would like (Sorry, Tiruin, but yes you too) and want to study their reactions and play styles, especially how they perceive their own play styles.
The others: The amount of information I expect isn't much, but neither can I carry a conversation with these players very well, so I tried for questions that would create conversations.

Flabort:

Toaster: Thanks. Do you have a rolecop ability for secondary roles? If so, could you please use it on me and tell me what that condition is, because it's hidden from me.

Fairly rolefishy (and oddly targeted at me instead of anyone), so I'll answer vaguely by saying I won't be helping you with that.

mastahcheese has actioned Toaster.

I can confirm I got a gun.  I can now daykill someone.  Helpfully, I can target myself with this.  So... two lynches today go go go?

With what Jim said, wow the second half of this seems really frightening now.
Fine, I'm fine with that. I figured if MC was trusting you with a gun, I could trust you with my information; I can accept that you maybe don't want to or maybe can't see my secondary role for me.

Flabort: It really depends on the player, but it’s easier to figure out people’s wincons from their posts than their abilities, barring outright statements or intentional hints.  Granted, wincon discernment is also pretty hard.

I find this to be true. But what do you mean by it depends on the player? Are certain players easier to read in that way?

flabort:

Shakerag How many third parties do you expect there to be?

Hell if I know.  More than one, fewer than sixteen? 

Bluh bluh busy.

Well, you proved me wrong with that. (See answer to Jack above)

TheDarkStar What do you suspect these mandates are? Do you suspect that they will have any impact on your play?

Mandates are probably something about how nobles can direct what other people do (maybe they need to know the role or the ability name?).

OK. What do you think defines a Noble? I expect a cultist team.

I'll be a volunteer. I don't have a role suggestion yet.

Everyone: Are you a Shakerag? Some people claim that they are not one, so I want to see who is and who isn't. Is this too similar to rolefishing?

OK, I look forward to your suggestion.

Also, as far as I know, I'm not shakerag. My secondary role is just.... I can't be sure of anything.

But I don't care about milo or lylo.

I expect random bullshit to take me out before I get there. I also expect random bullshit out of my control to either make me win or lose.

As to why I'm asking about what everyone wants for christdorfmas, it's to see who's naughty or nice. But everyone is reluctant (so far) to give me any ideas, so I don't have a list to check once, let alone twice.

So, if somebody wants free stuff are they naughty and if they don't are they nice? What if they just want free stuff?

OK. So how was that a better question?
Seriously, though. If you don't feel that you have the degree of control that you do in a regular game, why don't you do something to make yourself feel in control? Be the one in charge of firing off the "random bullshit" and work on eliminating those you suspect to be capable of offing you; why give yourself up to the random flow instead of playing to win?

And no, what, you're afraid everything I have to offer is coal? I genuinely want to give somebody a free gift!
I don't intend to declare everyone who wants a gift naughty, nor everyone who doesn't nice. Obviously that's full of WIFOM (were they trying to hide whether they were nice or not, etc), and I don't want that. I expect that what people request will be more informative than who requests.

[4maskwolf]

Yeah, you know how I said I would post when I got back with the dog...

Yeah, about that...

There's this thing called life that absolutely hates me right now...

Rest assured, Jack, I've thought long and hard about this answer: the possibility of some people having multiple wincons significantly changes my view on this game.

I'll probably give a brief overview of my thoughts later tonight and a more comprehensive one tomorrow.

[Vector]

Hmm that weird,
Blah going to type out RVS but too many people

Varee: Who do you suspect?

Cheeetar Which is scummier: Lurking day 2, or not answering questions day 1?

This is a good question. Not answering questions is more a sign of actual inactivity or newbieness than any calculated move- it costs nothing to answer a question, and it's fairly easy to not incriminate yourself too much. I'd say lurking day 2 is more of a scumtell than not answering questions day 1.

Cheeetar: Buddying noted.

Varee: What would be a good motive for targeting Jack A T on Day 1? Would it most likely be due to his skill level, or something else?

Cheeetar: Why ask this question instead of asking what Varee's motive actually was?

Everyone: Are you satisfied with your role?  Is there something that you want to claim before the game gets into full swing.  I personally don't, but Cheeetar claiming miller reminded me of that.

4maskwolf: Why are you interested in our satisfaction? Also, rolefishing.

Vector:  Are you the Alien Exterminator Shakerag?

Toaster: No.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Flabort:  Have you read any of the Kill Webadict Now games?  What influence do you think they'll have on this game?

Not yet, and they might bias one player or another into one way of thinking or another, leading them down the wrong path and missing the right one.
If you had picked another secondary role, would you have picked by how cool the name was, or by how powerful the idea of the role seemed?

Shakerag How many third parties do you expect there to be?

Cheeetar Which is scummier: Lurking day 2, or not answering questions day 1?

Jack A T Would you lie as scum? As a third party?

GayArchaea What is the most effective way to scum hunt without using powers in a high power game?

TheDarkStar What do you suspect these mandates are? Do you suspect that they will have any impact on your play?

Vector If parts of your role weren't shown to you, what would you do?

Varee If you had a kill, right now, who would you kill?

Tiruin If you had a day-jailkeep power, who would you block or protect?

Jim Groovester Do you figure that this game can possibly go into LYLO or MYLO?

Toaster Do you think that it is possible for everyone in the game to win at once?

Persus13 Are you lurking again? How long must someone be gone before he or she can be genuinely accused of lurking? Would you accuse them right away or wait longer?

4maskwolf Is a player's early play more indicative of their roles or wincons?

Mastahcheese How often should one revise their opinions on someone? Should a revision be drastic, and should past opinions have a say in new opinions?

SuperBlackCat How would you treat a vote-stealing power if you had it? How would you treat it in another player?

Flabort: How did you decide what kind of questions to ask? What kind of information [note: information, not answer] do you expect to get from these questions?

If parts of my role weren't shown to me, I would use the available information in order to attempt to deduce them, or assume that some sort of later role interaction would make them clear. In other words, I would treat it as a puzzle.

By the way, who would like an extra role tonight, and what do they want? Santa Claus is coming to town.

Cop me.

PfW
Toaster: Thanks. Do you have a rolecop ability for secondary roles? If so, could you please use it on me and tell me what that condition is, because it's hidden from me.

Why did you ask Toaster in particular this question?

Vector: I haven't played with you before, what do you consider important scumtells? What games do you consider to have good play from you?

Persus13:

Important scumtells: Nervousness, vagueness, belaboring a simple point, buddying/leading the town, any unmentioned overreactions or obfuscation in general.
Games with good play: Beginner's Mafia IV, Rysith's Semi-Bastard, and most other entries from the Notable Games Archive.

Vector: It's been a while.  How will Toaster's hammereriness affect your voting today?

Jack AT: Not at all. I may have to try to address more arguments to him vis-a-vis someone's scummitude or towniness, but it's not going to influence my vote.

Toaster:

Shakerag:  The title says I must kill you.  Do you agree y/n

Nooooooo.  You have to kill your -own- Shakerag.  I am not the Shakerag you are looking for. 

Shakerag: How do you know that you aren't Toaster's Shakerag? Do you know whose Shakerag you are?

Bluh bluh busy.

I look forward to your contribution.

Everyone: Are you a Shakerag? Some people claim that they are not one, so I want to see who is and who isn't. Is this too similar to rolefishing?

TheDarkStar: Why are you asking for our approval? You sound nervous.

CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE: Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?

Shakerag, obviously.
Now you have that song in my head.
._.
I hate you now.
Vote 4mask

Vareeeeeeee: How did you randomly pick? Random.org?

Everyone: How much does the actions-made-public rule screw with your plans?

Mastahcheese: What's with the lazy voting and questioning? Who are the three players you think are most likely to be scum?

Persus:

Toaster: Any recommendations for a player new to bastard games?

Don't make any assumptions.

I ask because I get the feeling that you're spending more time making yourself seem unsupspicious, than simply answering questions.

What makes you think this?

Besides the weapon I've already been handed?  Probably, yes.  Right this second, no, but I'm not afraid of killing someone I strongly suspect.

Really?
*Passes Toaster a gun*
I want to see if you'll make due on that, Toaster

Why are you pushing Toaster to make a kill so early in D1?

Mastahcheese: Why would I vote for you?

Because you can. Because you're trying to apply pressure. Because you want me dead. Because you're spiting me for all the times i've said "screw you, Jack".

...Did I get one right?

My... someone sounds awfully anxious and eager to please...

[TolyK]

There is nothing to catch in the southwest river of WaterInFrontOfMe.


The appointed hammerer is TOASTER.
Votes are RESET.
Day will end: not soon.

Votecount:

Shakerag (1)- Toaster
Cheetar (0)-
Jack A T (0)-
GayArchaea (1)- Flabort
TheDarkStar (0)-
Flabort  (0)-
Vector (0)-
Varee (1)- 4maskwolf
Tiruin (0)-
Jim Groovester (0)-
Toaster (0) -
Persus13 (0) -
4maskwolf (2) - Mastahcheese, Cheeetar
Mastahcheese (2) - Jack A T, Vector
SuperBlackCat (0) -

To Hammer: Majority at Day End
Please note that voting shenanigans are not displayed if they occur.

Not voting:
(Shakerag, GayArchaea, TheDarkStar, Varee, Tiruin, Jimbot, Persus13, SuperBlackCat) (

[Cheeetar]

Spoiler: Vector (click to show/hide)

Cheeetar Which is scummier: Lurking day 2, or not answering questions day 1?

This is a good question. Not answering questions is more a sign of actual inactivity or newbieness than any calculated move- it costs nothing to answer a question, and it's fairly easy to not incriminate yourself too much. I'd say lurking day 2 is more of a scumtell than not answering questions day 1.

Cheeetar: Buddying noted.

Well that's just silly.

Varee: What would be a good motive for targeting Jack A T on Day 1? Would it most likely be due to his skill level, or something else?

Cheeetar: Why ask this question instead of asking what Varee's motive actually was?

Misinterpretation of the Opening Post, specifically this part:

-About answering questions:
 = In-thread: only generic ones.
 = Via PM/QuickTopic: about anything that you have vision on and/or access to (your own abilities, dead players, teammates).

I thought TolyK meant that players would only be able to answer generic questions. Not so smart on my part, I will be honest.

Vector: To what extent is congeniality suspicious?

4maskwolf: In a game titled 'Kill Your Own Shakerag Now' why are you so happy to claim that your role name has 'the Shakerag' appended to it? Also, answer my question.

Shakerag: I asked you a question.

Varee: Earlier you mentioned that you targeted randomly. Would you please clarify: Do you mean to say that your action at the start of the day was a random action, or were you referring to something else?

[4maskwolf]

Can't answer, having mental breakdown, 4mask will be with you later when he's not afraid of dying in the immediate future.

[TolyK]

Can't answer, having mental breakdown, 4mask will be with you later when he's not afraid of dying in the immediate future.

What.

Uh. Ow?

[flabort]

Flabort: How did you decide what kind of questions to ask?

Creative process, where I consider random questions for the RVS phase and decide whether to ask them or not, and then choose who to ask them to.

What kind of information [note: information, not answer] do you expect to get from these questions?

Alright, where information =/= answer, and =/= conversation stimulating, I expect a bare minimum of the sort of information gained from RVS: who does and doesn't participate in RVS or regular conversations; also information for later in case somebody contradicts themselves later. And lastly a couple seeded in to farm information on how to treat my own role. Otherwise, see my answer to Jack A T.

If parts of my role weren't shown to me, I would use the available information in order to attempt to deduce them, or assume that some sort of later role interaction would make them clear. In other words, I would treat it as a puzzle.

Right. Thank you for this.

PfW
Toaster: Thanks. Do you have a rolecop ability for secondary roles? If so, could you please use it on me and tell me what that condition is, because it's hidden from me.

Why did you ask Toaster in particular this question?

Because of the reason I gave earlier: I thought if Mastahcheese could trust him, he must have a reason to, and therefore Toaster must be trustworthy.
Now that I think of this, though, it could also mean there is another reason the two could trust each other.

Why didn't you see my answer to this question earlier? Was it the WoT?

Can't answer, having mental breakdown, 4mask will be with you later when he's not afraid of dying in the immediate future.

Hmm. Hope you feel better and less afraid soon.

[Vector]

Cheeetar: Thanks for the answers.

Vector: To what extent is congeniality suspicious?

I see it as a sort of "entry scumtell." It's something worth commenting on and makes the person a worthy target of questioning, but not in and of itself worth hanging someone over. Similarly, so is unusual rudeness. I'm looking for variations from a baseline. I'm realizing now that the Mafia baseline level of aggression may have changed substantially since the last time I played.


flabort:

Flabort: How did you decide what kind of questions to ask?

Creative process, where I consider random questions for the RVS phase and decide whether to ask them or not, and then choose who to ask them to.

What kind of information [note: information, not answer] do you expect to get from these questions?

Alright, where information =/= answer, and =/= conversation stimulating, I expect a bare minimum of the sort of information gained from RVS: who does and doesn't participate in RVS or regular conversations; also information for later in case somebody contradicts themselves later. And lastly a couple seeded in to farm information on how to treat my own role. Otherwise, see my answer to Jack A T.

Thanks, this makes sense; same with your other answer.

Why didn't you see my answer to this question earlier? Was it the WoT?

Yeah, it was probably the WoT. Also, there's enough players and activity that I can't really keep track of all of the game's action at the moment.

Can't answer, having mental breakdown, 4mask will be with you later when he's not afraid of dying in the immediate future.

Hmm. Hope you feel better and less afraid soon.

Ditto. That really blows.

[Jim Groovester]

Seriously, though. If you don't feel that you have the degree of control that you do in a regular game, why don't you do something to make yourself feel in control? Be the one in charge of firing off the "random bullshit" and work on eliminating those you suspect to be capable of offing you; why give yourself up to the random flow instead of playing to win?

I never not play to win.

This doesn't change how I feel about how the game will go down.

And no, what, you're afraid everything I have to offer is coal? I genuinely want to give somebody a free gift!
I don't intend to declare everyone who wants a gift naughty, nor everyone who doesn't nice. Obviously that's full of WIFOM (were they trying to hide whether they were nice or not, etc), and I don't want that. I expect that what people request will be more informative than who requests.

I see what you're getting at now.

Day will end: not soon.

Could we get a more informative date to go off of or is the lack of a deadline part of the fun?

[Varee]

mask4wolf :You know why just for a while



Shakerag: My favorite recipe is Curry with Rice

Damn There more than 2 mafia ....

[Varee]

Also i forgot to answer questions.....


Random : The power just pick random people as target so .....


Vector:Who do I suspect? Shakerag, ofcourse it have to be shakerag

[Cheeetar]

Random : The power just pick random people as target so .....

I will take that to mean: "Yes, the reason I actioned Jack A T and Shakerag at the start of the day was because I cannot determine the target of that action."