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Author Topic: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России  (Read 239634 times)

MonkeyHead

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3270 on: February 04, 2015, 01:32:18 pm »

About that video, it's not the commentary that matters, it's that there are dead civilians, killed by artillery fire, in a part of a rebel-controlled city, far behind the frontlines, that is devoid of any military targets. There is roughly a bajillion of such videos, pictures and testimonies by the local populace, including the ones on social media, on the internet, and more are appearing every day. Which makes for a rather unfair comparison, I'd say, with, at most, three incidents where the rebels can be said to have shot Ukrainian civilians outside of the immediate engagement area - MH-17, Volnovakha and Mariupol.

Jet fuel can't melt steel! Wake up sheeple, it was the reptilians all along.
???

True, but 3 verifiable-ish claims do count for a lot (especially the airliner, for a panthon of reasons) when compared with any number of "very tricky to verify objectively" rebel claims - especially things like "civilian", "devoid of targets", and who makes the social media posts. Don't get me wrong, I am not dismissing that video and the many others out of hand, but the conflict is reaching a stage when any and all events are being described by both sides as pretty much crimes against humanity. For every NR video there is one from the Ukraine side saying the same thing. For every media report or claim there is a counter claim or contradictory report. Such is the nature of such conflicts, and as we all know this only serves to fan the flames. For someone who as shown remarkable objectivity in this thread, it seems to be letting you down a little here ;)

It is easy to paint a nasty picture by declaring places as "far behind the front lines" when people in the video say "not to go there" as it is not in cover, and metal sheeting is seemingly erected in some kind of screen - scrub that, on a re watching the "cover" refers to bodies being covered that we do not get to see despite the claims, and the sheeting seems to be a fence damaged by the shelling. I am sure the AFU is dropping shells where it probably should not be under very weak justifications (as in "anyone is a rebel over there"... dark as that is, right?). If anything, the Rebels have learnt from people like IS just how valuable winning the war on-line can be - plenty of videos like the one you posted can go some way to swaying opinion amongst those inclined for whatever reason to accept their claims.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 01:44:50 pm by MonkeyHead »
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3271 on: February 04, 2015, 01:38:23 pm »

About that video, it's not the commentary that matters, it's that there are dead civilians, killed by artillery fire, in a part of a rebel-controlled city, far behind the frontlines, that is devoid of any military targets. There is roughly a bajillion of such videos, pictures and testimonies by the local populace, including the ones on social media, on the internet, and more are appearing every day. Which makes for a rather unfair comparison, I'd say, with, at most, three incidents where the rebels can be said to have shot Ukrainian civilians outside of the immediate engagement area - MH-17, Volnovakha and Mariupol.

Jet fuel can't melt steel! Wake up sheeple, it was the reptilians all along.
???

True, but 3 verifiable-ish claims do count for a lot (especially the airliner, for a panthon of reasons) when compared with any number of "very tricky to verify objectively" rebel claims. I am sure the AFU is dropping shells where it probably should not be under weak justifications (as in anyone is a rebel, dark as that is, right?). If anything, the Rebels have learnt from people like IS just how valuable winning the war on-line can be - plenty of videos like the one you posted can go some way to swaying opinion amongst those inclined for whatever reason to accept their claims.
Well, what other realistic expalnations can you propose for there being so many shellings and so many dead civilians in various rebel-controlled towns all over Donbass for several months already other than the Ukrainian artillery fire being at worst deliberately indiscriminate and at best used with reckless abandon in civilian areas? Especially considering that the civilian areas of Ukrainian-controlled towns near the frontline are being shelled exceptionally rarely? And speaking of verifiablish claims, what about that Volnovakha'd bus in Donetsk?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 02:00:38 pm by Knit tie »
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3272 on: February 04, 2015, 01:51:01 pm »

None - nor am I claiming there to be one. I am sure that there are civilians dying due to the action of the AFU, like the bus you mention appears to be. War is hell, after all. However, if this is down to malice, incompetence, shit intel or really bad decision making I do not know, nor do I make any claims to - unlike those directly involved, who can hardly be expected to make objective claims that are not effected by emotional preclusion. Exactly the same goes for the acts of the NR. I am not inclined to fully trust the claims of the NR videos in exactly the same way I am not inclined to fully trust the justifications for such attacks as given by the AFU. Blame the fact that I have become over accustomed to relying on the BBC for my information.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 01:58:51 pm by MonkeyHead »
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3273 on: February 04, 2015, 02:00:26 pm »

I agree in general - except my point is that the shellings of Donbass by the Ukrainian army have been going on for long enough, occuring repeatedly enough, and hitting civilian areas often enough for "deliberate scorched-earth tactics or complete indifference towards collateral damage" to start becoming the most likely explanation for them. You can't recieve shit intel, make bad decisions or aim incompetently so many times in a row.

Also, if you want to see some uncensored dead civilians in Donbass. That's at least a Volnovakha's worth of corpses there.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 02:07:19 pm by Knit tie »
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3274 on: February 04, 2015, 02:14:24 pm »

Unsurprisingly, I am going to remain agnostic on the matter until I have a lot more, and a lot better, to go on than the current information a our disposal. I can not intellectually honestly come to a conclusion based almost solely on evidence based around appeals to emotion provided by those that have apparently been wronged, for fairly obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 02:29:17 pm by MonkeyHead »
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3275 on: February 04, 2015, 02:47:51 pm »

Another thing is that all of the "it wasn't malice" excuses you said apply to the AFU also apply to the rebels as well - I don't see how OSCE-analysed collateral damage is supposed to be worse in this regard than vanilla collateral damage. I mean, all that destruction in Gorlivka had to come from somewhere, and how do you suggest this is less damning of the AFU than Mariupol is damning of the rebels?
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RedKing

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3276 on: February 04, 2015, 03:03:18 pm »

One explanation I've heard recently is that both the Ukrainians and the rebels are using old Soviet artillery and Grad rocket artillery, which were designed for use against massed concentrations of enemy forces in a hypothetical NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict. So they're inaccurate as fuck and designed to drop maximum payload in broad zone of fire.

Yes, using such a weapon in and around civilian centers is indiscriminate and reckless, and has been called such by international monitors recently, blaming both sides. Which seems pretty accurate (no pun intended).
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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3277 on: February 04, 2015, 03:20:47 pm »

Except that the GRADs can still be aimed at general areas, and the AFU aim them at civilian ones in Donbass, and the artillery used by the AFU is not limited to GRADs or other MLRS systems anyway, but this discussion is rather pointless at this point, I agree.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 03:54:36 pm by Knit tie »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3278 on: February 04, 2015, 04:07:31 pm »

Can you, lying scum, give a single proof of Ukrainian army Using Grads on civilian targets? We know you can't
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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3279 on: February 04, 2015, 04:25:18 pm »

How about you take a look at that link I posted above?
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Darvi

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3280 on: February 04, 2015, 04:28:05 pm »

Also exiting flame-mode would be nice.
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smjjames

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3281 on: February 04, 2015, 04:31:11 pm »

Can you, lying scum, give a single proof of Ukrainian army Using Grads on civilian targets? We know you can't

Maybe you should be less provocative? You can say what you said without going into insults.
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Baffler

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3282 on: February 04, 2015, 04:33:56 pm »

None of those pictures actually show anything that identifies their location either. For all we know the advancing Novorossiyan troops could have taken those pictures, or pulled them from someplace else. Neither side has shown any meaningful restraint in bombarding of the other either, so even if they are genuinely what they say they are it's not like that gives them a moral high ground. It might be years before we know what actually happened.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3283 on: February 04, 2015, 04:39:02 pm »

How about we stop talking about this before the thread begins combusting?
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #3284 on: February 04, 2015, 05:10:07 pm »

Can you, lying scum, give a single proof of Ukrainian army Using Grads on civilian targets? We know you can't

Maybe you should be less provocative? You can say what you said without going into insults.

You know... I am leaving this thread as this is impossible to tolerate. Both that *** *** *** *** Knit tie and the fact that bay12ers keep talking with the always lying piece of shit that pretends to be a human being.

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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
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