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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 446447 times)

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2430 on: September 19, 2019, 10:15:59 am »

Is there any plans to implement dwarven nurseries, to potentially provide "proper" childcare for dwarves, and potentially lower the number of warbabies? Related quote and suggestion from Scriver and others below.

It would be nice to have nurseries just not for war babies but children in general. Combine with burrows to make "safety zones" for them to retreat to during battles or sieges a la Helm's Deep.

But yes as iconic as the Battle-Bred Babies of DF is I really think the game could use a nursery function. Both for dwarves to temporarily leave their babies at (in case of violence) and for nobles to be assholes about child rearing with (lol take care of my own offspring? You must be joking).

Then again I would also give children an inclination to want to hang around their parents and make them able to learn their parents' professional skills by proxy from being present while the parent work. Maybe have them limited to some low skill level but then make their parents work a little faster by having them around (simulating them helping in the workshop).

I think there's a public mandate for it given how often it turns up in suggestions, but not a declared devlog one given the direction towards the big goals in the Magic Arc and how much of a detour it could end up being. I personally would support the 'idea' of a player set safe area but i think given there's been no hint of a devlog for a while on the matter it would be best consigned to the suggestions forum for elaborations.

Committing to doing nursuries/etc. might compel players to ask for more depth regarding children in their interim period of obscure uselessness before adulthood, like academic public/private tutoring to broaden minds etc or to touch on the subjects of childhood and adolescence more, but this is a pitfall i feel that Toady could get well sunk into given the normal amout of detail with everything connected that DF strives to achieve.
  • Also the horrible daycare experiment implications of player's Spartan like approaches to childcare, in the hopes animals or child snatchers would take away nursery babies stationed outside, babies aren't even born with knives to defend themselves anymore  :P
Rushing to add everything now might leave post-magic arc when everything is in place to be built upon rather than pulled out quickly and started again
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2431 on: September 19, 2019, 03:53:22 pm »

How far away is the villain system from producing a stereotypical fantasy thieves guild? In my mind it can be boiled down to a criminal organisation that might not actively invent or undertake plots but who's permission (and a tax) is required before professional criminal activity is undertaken in their sphere of influence. It may or may not have some sort of tacit agreement with a legitimate government. Is a thieves guild something you'd like to see come up in certain gens?
Rather far, I would guess. You'd really need an economy for a thieves guild to have a place (although it obviously doesn't stop companies, embezzling, and other economic activities to happen in an economic vacuum with the Villains arc). It also would benefit from a foundation of Law & Customs that might give them a place in the society and some explanation for why they exists.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2432 on: September 20, 2019, 12:11:40 am »

Is there any plans to implement dwarven nurseries, to potentially provide "proper" childcare for dwarves, and potentially lower the number of warbabies? Related quote and suggestion from Scriver and others below.

It would be nice to have nurseries just not for war babies but children in general. Combine with burrows to make "safety zones" for them to retreat to during battles or sieges a la Helm's Deep.

But yes as iconic as the Battle-Bred Babies of DF is I really think the game could use a nursery function. Both for dwarves to temporarily leave their babies at (in case of violence) and for nobles to be assholes about child rearing with (lol take care of my own offspring? You must be joking).

Then again I would also give children an inclination to want to hang around their parents and make them able to learn their parents' professional skills by proxy from being present while the parent work. Maybe have them limited to some low skill level but then make their parents work a little faster by having them around (simulating them helping in the workshop).

I think there's a public mandate for it given how often it turns up in suggestions, but not a declared devlog one given the direction towards the big goals in the Magic Arc and how much of a detour it could end up being. I personally would support the 'idea' of a player set safe area but i think given there's been no hint of a devlog for a while on the matter it would be best consigned to the suggestions forum for elaborations.

Committing to doing nursuries/etc. might compel players to ask for more depth regarding children in their interim period of obscure uselessness before adulthood, like academic public/private tutoring to broaden minds etc or to touch on the subjects of childhood and adolescence more, but this is a pitfall i feel that Toady could get well sunk into given the normal amout of detail with everything connected that DF strives to achieve.
  • Also the horrible daycare experiment implications of player's Spartan like approaches to childcare, in the hopes animals or child snatchers would take away nursery babies stationed outside, babies aren't even born with knives to defend themselves anymore  :P
Rushing to add everything now might leave post-magic arc when everything is in place to be built upon rather than pulled out quickly and started again

Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely).  Doesn't stop the player making their own design...
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2433 on: September 20, 2019, 12:36:06 am »

Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely).  Doesn't stop the player making their own design..

The practices of tutoring the nobility by assigning a guardian to be mentored by as well as the obvious pressure to continue the family trade with passed on traditions and methods are common for the time period even before any kind of formal organizational education (and indeed even into times of antiquity with a lot more philosophic studentship/societies for young adults) though it might be a bit obtuse to include a entire breadth for a university (though they definitely did exist for a select few as soon as 1088 in Bologna, Italy a full 356 years old by 1444 as the earliest European university.)

Just as you say rightly, for the period sitting down both male and female students in a formal classroom irregardless of social status for common public education is far fetched, but in the same breadth you can say that dwarves are ahistorical visionaries with their ideas that just live by circumstance and setting in the present period they reside.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2434 on: September 20, 2019, 12:46:25 am »

New reply for a entirely seperate question, i apologise about the double post.

How far away is the villain system from producing a stereotypical fantasy thieves guild? In my mind it can be boiled down to a criminal organisation that might not actively invent or undertake plots but who's permission (and a tax) is required before professional criminal activity is undertaken in their sphere of influence. It may or may not have some sort of tacit agreement with a legitimate government. Is a thieves guild something you'd like to see come up in certain gens?
Rather far, I would guess. You'd really need an economy for a thieves guild to have a place (although it obviously doesn't stop companies, embezzling, and other economic activities to happen in an economic vacuum with the Villains arc). It also would benefit from a foundation of Law & Customs that might give them a place in the society and some explanation for why they exists.

Steam Announcement on the DF steam page offers some more context.

Quote
We've been cleaning up the villainous network issues I mentioned in my last news post. In order to connect the networks more fully, we mostly focused on criminal organizations operating in cities. They can now compete with each other, subordinate each other and skim off of each other's profits, and fully fuse into single larger gangs. They can also establish new branches in other cities to give the networks some additional geographic spread, which should help to make investigations more interesting.

With those new additions as a backdrop, we allowed position-holding villains (who might be, for instance, nobles, priests, or bookkeepers) to contact the criminal organizations through intermediaries. Once in contact, they can contract out their assassination, sabotage, theft and kidnapping plots. This creates additional links for our investigations, and also opens up opportunities for the criminal leaders to exploit the link the other way, through blackmail and so forth.

It would really mean beyond this what you convey 'gangs' to mean by professionalism, since they still would do the type of things your described 'theives guild' would do while not needing to flaunt around additional systems like mercenaries (that we're aware of). Paying for their own long conspicious cloaks and poisoned daggers with little embezzled accounts amongst those kinds of things.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2435 on: September 20, 2019, 10:33:02 pm »

Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely).  Doesn't stop the player making their own design..

The practices of tutoring the nobility by assigning a guardian to be mentored by as well as the obvious pressure to continue the family trade with passed on traditions and methods are common for the time period even before any kind of formal organizational education (and indeed even into times of antiquity with a lot more philosophic studentship/societies for young adults) though it might be a bit obtuse to include a entire breadth for a university (though they definitely did exist for a select few as soon as 1088 in Bologna, Italy a full 356 years old by 1444 as the earliest European university.)

Just as you say rightly, for the period sitting down both male and female students in a formal classroom irregardless of social status for common public education is far fetched, but in the same breadth you can say that dwarves are ahistorical visionaries with their ideas that just live by circumstance and setting in the present period they reside.

Oh, I'm not against an overhaul of child activities to allow greater participation in 'useful' activities, but only the isolated walling up vis-a-vis command and control. (As an aside I regard Paris as the earliest european university - but we already have a rough equivalent for this with scholars + Libraries.)   8)

[We're well off into suggestion territory here, and for distant development at that, ... but anyways: my vision would be of a 'child activities' menu as an equivalent to the labours for adults except it would only have a few broad categories such as - help with harvest, help with hauling, provide food/water, help parents, help fortress.  Unlike labours the associated activities would only trigger occasionally, maybe 10% of the time on average and would be influenced by traits and personalities.  No doubt this is a double attempt on my part to capture both something of the chaos and freedom attributed to the modern child and a modeling of the greater degree of participation in public life (albeit in a minor role) that took place during previous eras.]
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