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Author Topic: Independence war  (Read 6128 times)

LordUbik

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2014, 03:59:40 am »

It could be interesting, but i suppose i would need a "reason" to declare my indipendence.

 In real world, colonies were often overtaxed, ignored, and kept in poverty both of money and political power, only used to gain resources and/or store political enemies and fellons.

Dwarven civs instead ask nothing from you, trade fairily and give you the possibility to become the mountainhome with some effort.

So why would i need/want to be indipendent?

Maybe we'll need to pay annually to the mountainhomes once the economy kicks in?

Yep, by money or raw materials, that would work. Or we could have to send some of our dwarves to fight for the mother civ, with little hope of seeing them again... things like that!

Moreover, with such a mechanic, other fortesses could try to become indipendent from us once we becomme the mountainhome one way or the other.

Surely that would need the army arc to be completed first, but i would love it!
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Weirdsound

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2014, 01:43:18 pm »

I think it should be decided by your nobles and your citizens, not you.
  :P

This.

Perhaps having minor/lesser nobles who have issues with authority could lead to revolution. Your mayor/military leader might hint at their intent by mandating weapons and armor when they don't usually prefer such things, or even usually have the authority to mandate them, or do things that the baron/duke or other nobles tied to the old regime wouldn't like, such as banning the production/import of things they prefer.

Eventually the troublemaker accuses the Baron/Duke of Tyranny/Despotism via the justice system, and if you accept, the leader is stripped of his/her title and taken away to be jailed/hammered, while UristMcWashington takes on a semi-random Baron equivilant title such as 'Leader', 'Revolutionary General', 'Father of (New Civ Name)' ect, and war begins the next time the liaison shows up. Best be ready to fight that Caravan guard he tends to bring with him.
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GavJ

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2014, 02:11:11 pm »

There seems to be confusion regarding internal rebellions versus rebellion against the mountainhomes. I think these are very different features. The former should be spontaneous as a result of your dwarves, not you. The latter should be your decision, though.
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Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Weirdsound

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2014, 04:52:35 pm »

There seems to be confusion regarding internal rebellions versus rebellion against the mountainhomes. I think these are very different features. The former should be spontaneous as a result of your dwarves, not you. The latter should be your decision, though.

I'd imagine, in most cases, you couldn't rebel against the mountainhome without first doing away with the Baroness or Duke. They are titles that traditionally draw their power from the King. Therefore in most forts an internal rebellion would be a prerequisite to one against the mountainhomes. Furthermore, in the case of a purely internal rebellion, the king might not care for his Dutchess getting kicked to the curb/executed, so he might try and send in his forces to rectify the situation.

Therefore, unless your Baron/Duke/ect is himself responsible for rebelling against the mountainhome, or an internal rebellion is aimed at a lesser noble with no direct ties to the monarchy, the mechanics of internal rebellions and rebellions against the mountainhomes will more often than not be deeply intertwined.
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GavJ

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2014, 04:58:54 pm »

Quote
Therefore in most forts an internal rebellion would be a prerequisite to one against the mountainhomes.
Dukes are squishy and almost always unarmed. This is a trivial matter that would occur within the first minutes of a rebellion against the mountainhomes / or be tied up all in the same movement if you consider the case of loyalists (loyalists to the duke and the king are the same thing)

What I mean by "internal rebellion" was against YOU the overseer.
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Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Icefire2314

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2014, 07:22:51 pm »

The civilian alert goes up. The soldiers and militia assemble outside the gate. Dogs bark, and stray cats hiss at the mass outside the gate. Ballistae are rolled into place, aimed at the mass of iron and steel below. The tamed bears and traded tigers, clad in chain mail and leather, await to charge into the fray. Dwarves atop giant moles and draltha line up, waiting for the signal. Then, the signal was given: a single drum beat, followed by the sound of clamouring feet, and released crossbow bolts. The army below begins it's own charge, the front lines falling to bolts. At the gates, a massive silhouette of a cave dragon, the duke of Richfloater atop it, screams to his men-"Today, we win independence, freedom from the old Mountainhome! Fight, fight to the last dwarf! This day, will be ours!"



Only to be scared off his mount by a wombat, the gate crushes the ballistae and crossbowdearves, the draltha stop to graze instead of fight, and the bears begin attacking any dwarf. Dozens of untrained soldiers simply run home.
___________________________________________________________________________________

In short, it'd be great to fight for independence. Just, we need to work out some other things first. And implement some interesting features too.

Until I hit the second part I was about to wonder if you were new here.
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Paranoid Alaskan

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2014, 08:23:00 pm »

Now this would be a great idea...when he adds the ability to send dwarven expeditions so you can siege your once rulers, also the ability to send dwarves to settle new forts and to send caravans. but he could add it to add a little more "FUN".
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Weirdsound

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2014, 11:49:46 pm »

Quote
Therefore in most forts an internal rebellion would be a prerequisite to one against the mountainhomes.
Dukes are squishy and almost always unarmed. This is a trivial matter that would occur within the first minutes of a rebellion against the mountainhomes / or be tied up all in the same movement if you consider the case of loyalists (loyalists to the duke and the king are the same thing)

What I mean by "internal rebellion" was against YOU the overseer.

To the best of my knowledge, you, 'the overseer' do not have any sort of in universe existence to rebel against. It would be a bit strange and meta to go after the player directly. Anyway, we already sort of have that kind of behavior, mechanically at least, in tantrum/bezerk activity in which your dwarves stop obeying and cause trouble.
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darknessofthenight

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2014, 10:45:18 am »

Quote
Therefore in most forts an internal rebellion would be a prerequisite to one against the mountainhomes.
Dukes are squishy and almost always unarmed. This is a trivial matter that would occur within the first minutes of a rebellion against the mountainhomes / or be tied up all in the same movement if you consider the case of loyalists (loyalists to the duke and the king are the same thing)

What I mean by "internal rebellion" was against YOU the overseer.

To the best of my knowledge, you, 'the overseer' do not have any sort of in universe existence to rebel against. It would be a bit strange and meta to go after the player directly. Anyway, we already sort of have that kind of behavior, mechanically at least, in tantrum/bezerk activity in which your dwarves stop obeying and cause trouble.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you the player don't exist
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GavJ

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2014, 02:39:09 pm »

Uh what?

Unless you are suggesting that dwarves have a telepathic hive mind, I don't see how it makes sense that you aren't a real entity. You might be a GOD or whatever, but you are something.

(also who locks doors and who sets pressure plate rules?  :P)
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Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Sirbug

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2014, 09:14:13 am »

You are a spirit of questionable judgement. You cause compulsion in dwarves to go and do things for reasons they do not understand.
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Cool, but wouldn't this likely lead to tongues having a '[SPEACH]' tag, and thus via necromancy we would have nearly unkillable reanimated tongues following necromancers spamming 'it is sad but not unexpected'?

kaassamuel

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2014, 03:23:06 pm »

i think this is a awesome idea, but maybe if you are really big that you can solve it diplomatic. +1
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latias1290

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2014, 10:51:05 am »

I think it should be like this instead; handing the liaison would have a medium-small chance of it being denied depending on your status(think of the amount of sieges and such being defeated, the overall happiness of the fort, food production calculated by the scarcity of food and drinks compared to the population, etc.), but it would have to be taken to the mountainhome first for it to be denied, and you would get the message of its approval or denial the next time the liaison arrives. And the war would only happen if you choose for it when it gets denied multiple times. This should also get unlocked as part of becoming a county, rather than right away. Finally, trading should continue, but not for a "friend price". Declaring independence is a diplomatic thing, and most groups try to do it peacefully rather than declaring a war right away.

Other than that, I like this idea.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 10:53:44 am by latias1290 »
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The best way to demonstrate it to him is take a save of 40 year old fortress with 150 dwarves in it on a good sized embark with a volcano that just breached the circus and install it on his gaming rig and watch it bring his rig to its knees.

GavJ

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Re: Independence war
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2014, 01:19:07 pm »

Quote
it would have to be taken to the mountainhome first for it to be denied
This doesn't make sense. Sure, have a diplomacy option that you can try to avoid war IF YOU WANT. Although it wouldn't be asking for independence, it would be attempting to settle whatever grievances you have in the first place instead.

If it gets to the point of declaring your independence, though, then clearly you would not sit around and ask for permission! Asking permission proves that you aren't independent! Both to the mountainhome and to your own followers who will lose all faith in you.
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Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.
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