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Author Topic: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~  (Read 3795 times)

Ladygolem

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~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« on: November 26, 2014, 04:33:26 pm »

Inspired by the success and popularity of the spermaceti thread, the idea came to me for another high value marine animal product - the colour of the Caesars - Tyrian purple!

Also known as imperial purple (which would likely be the in game name to avoid real-life location names) it was an extremely valuable reddish-purple dye used by ancient cultures around the Mediterranean Near East and Mexico. It was extracted from the murex snail in a messy, dangerous and frankly disgusting process, which to me sounds extremely dwarfy. Here's the process according to Pliny the Elder:

Quote
The most favourable season for taking these fish [i.e., shellfish] is after the rising of the Dog-star, or else before spring; for when they have once discharged their waxy secretion, their juices have no consistency: this, however, is a fact unknown in the dyers' workshops, although it is a point of primary importance. After it is taken, the vein [i.e., hypobranchial gland] is extracted, which we have previously spoken of, to which it is requisite to add salt, a sextarius [about 20 fl. oz.] about to every hundred pounds of juice. It is sufficient to leave them to steep for a period of three days, and no more, for the fresher they are, the greater virtue there is in the liquor. It is then set to boil in vessels of tin [or lead], and every hundred amphorę ought to be boiled down to five hundred pounds of dye, by the application of a moderate heat; for which purpose the vessel is placed at the end of a long funnel, which communicates with the furnace; while thus boiling, the liquor is skimmed from time to time, and with it the flesh, which necessarily adheres to the veins. About the tenth day, generally, the whole contents of the cauldron are in a liquefied state, upon which a fleece, from which the grease has been cleansed, is plunged into it by way of making trial; but until such time as the colour is found to satisfy the wishes of those preparing it, the liquor is still kept on the boil. The tint that inclines to red is looked upon as inferior to that which is of a blackish hue. The wool is left to lie in soak for five hours, and then, after carding it, it is thrown in again, until it has fully imbibed the colour.

The process goes quite indepth, so I'll try to sum it up in simpler, dwarfier terms:

1. Obtain murex snails, living or dead. Obviously if you want a renewable industry, you'll want live ones, otherwise eventually you'll fish them to extinction.

2. The live snail is prodded/goaded into releasing raw murex extract as a self-defense mechanism; this could be done through the milking labor. There may be problems with milking an aquatic creature, though. If it's an insurmountable challenge, we can simply skip this step and go to step 3.

3. The extract is boiled, whether the milked fluid on its own or the entire still alive snail, in a great tank of water, with the addition of salt, and then left to decompose. If the latter option is chosen, the snail obviously dies and cannot be reused.  This would require fuel and some sort of salt analog, and would be performed at a dyer's shop if that's at all possible. This would also create miasma, so whichever workshop this reaction uses would have to be isolated from the rest of your fort, and the dyer should definitely get some really nice furniture in their room to make up for having to work in the stench.

4. We could consider the dye finished at that point, but the excerpt mentions "inferior red dye"; it could be set up so the first boiling reaction gives us red murex dye, which while moderately valuable would not be worth leaving at that stage. It would have to be processed once more to give us imperial purple dye.

To summarise the reactions required would be:

1. (Optional) Milk murex snail >> raw murex extract.
2a. Raw murex extract + coal + salt? >> red murex dye.
or
2b. Raw murex snail + coal +salt? >> red murex dye.
3. Red murex dye + coal >> imperial purple dye.

Now the question is, is any of this even remotely possible? Can one even obtain dye from an animal, seeing as all dye sources in the vanilla game are plants? Could these extra reactions be added on to the dyer's shop, or would a new workshop be needed? I'm not experienced in reaction raws but I'm willing to give it a shot once I get an idea of what people think.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 04:54:01 pm by Ladygolem »
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Grimlocke

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Re: Tyrian Purple
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 04:59:21 pm »

The dyer's workshop does not support modded reactions. You could add it to the still or the tannery though.

From the sound of it this stuff cannot be processed into the powder form the current dying system uses but you will have to ignore that, I don't think its possible to dye cloth through reactions.

The reactions seem reasonable enough. You could add a cauldron and water but most fortress reactions abstract stuff like that and it likely would get tedious anyway. You could add a cauldron as a component in a custom workshop if you make one though.

It would probably make the most sense to forego the milking part, I don't think this is something the snails survive (seeing how part of them is removed). Not sure how that works reaction wise though, I have not made any reactions involving vermin creatures. Well except one where I tried to make poisonous bees. That didn't work right.
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Ladygolem

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Re: Tyrian Purple
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 05:12:30 pm »

The dyer's workshop does not support modded reactions. You could add it to the still or the tannery though.

From the sound of it this stuff cannot be processed into the powder form the current dying system uses but you will have to ignore that, I don't think its possible to dye cloth through reactions.

The reactions seem reasonable enough. You could add a cauldron and water but most fortress reactions abstract stuff like that and it likely would get tedious anyway. You could add a cauldron as a component in a custom workshop if you make one though.

It would probably make the most sense to forego the milking part, I don't think this is something the snails survive (seeing how part of them is removed). Not sure how that works reaction wise though, I have not made any reactions involving vermin creatures. Well except one where I tried to make poisonous bees. That didn't work right.

I see; looks like if this is to be added it will require quite a bit of abstraction from the real process. Anything really, as long as it works. Though re: your thoughts on the milking step, if you look at the wiki page it says that it is possible to obtain without harming the creature - the snail releases it when disturbed, much like an octopus releases its ink.

Is it possible to add corpse items to vermin/fish, the way, say, ostriches and cave crocodiles have gizzard stones? That would probably be a good start.

Grimlocke

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Re: Tyrian Purple
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 06:35:49 pm »

The dyer's workshop does not support modded reactions. You could add it to the still or the tannery though.

From the sound of it this stuff cannot be processed into the powder form the current dying system uses but you will have to ignore that, I don't think its possible to dye cloth through reactions.

The reactions seem reasonable enough. You could add a cauldron and water but most fortress reactions abstract stuff like that and it likely would get tedious anyway. You could add a cauldron as a component in a custom workshop if you make one though.

It would probably make the most sense to forego the milking part, I don't think this is something the snails survive (seeing how part of them is removed). Not sure how that works reaction wise though, I have not made any reactions involving vermin creatures. Well except one where I tried to make poisonous bees. That didn't work right.

I see; looks like if this is to be added it will require quite a bit of abstraction from the real process. Anything really, as long as it works. Though re: your thoughts on the milking step, if you look at the wiki page it says that it is possible to obtain without harming the creature - the snail releases it when disturbed, much like an octopus releases its ink.

Is it possible to add corpse items to vermin/fish, the way, say, ostriches and cave crocodiles have gizzard stones? That would probably be a good start.

Ah! Interesting. Pliny's writing can be a bit obtuse. Possibly you can salvage the old dwarven cheese process for this? Im not sure if that even still works though.

I don't think gizzards and such show up unless you butcher a creature, which is not possible with vermin.

As I said I haven't done much with vermin beside the silly stuff, maybe someone else can help us along here?

Or you know, make giant murex snails so you can make a cosy snail pen :P
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Ladygolem

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 06:44:44 pm »

One could simply make the snails very small 'proper' animals. Ofc, giant varieties would also be very fun, with oodles of dye from a single snail!

Another alternative would be to simply copy the process by which liquid fire is obtained from fire snakes. The question is, do animal traps work underwater? EDIT: The fishery has the "capture a live fish option" - a more appropriate comparison would be the production of mog juice

Also, to clarify, the live extraction process is described in the wiki article itself; Pliny seems to have been unaware of this aspect of production when he wrote his description.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 06:52:22 pm by Ladygolem »
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Wannabehero

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 06:47:51 pm »

Salt (NaCl) occurs in-game is Rock Salt, a relatively rare mineral.

Nearest reasonable analogue is Potash, which is primarily composed of KCl.

_____

Here is what I would do:

Add the following tokens to your creature (I am assuming you are using the standard snail RAW plus your own modifications)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1)  Murex Snail --> Murex Dye Gland Glob (obtained through butchering)

2)  Murex Dye Gland + Potash --> Snail Dye

3)  Red Snail Dye + fuel --> Imperial Purple Dye


You can set a series of reactions that call on an object having the EXTRACT_DYE_MAT material reaction product (and the REFINE_DYE_MAT too), so that in addition to your tyrian purple, you could mod other dye sources into the game that use the same reaction series.

Just my two urists, have fun!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 06:51:45 pm by Wannabehero »
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Grimlocke

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 06:59:54 pm »

Quote
"twelve thousand snails of Murex brandaris yield no more than 1.4 g of pure dye, enough to colour only the trim of a single garment."

Dang. Decadent much? Seems like something dwarves would do! Urist McKingy: A million snails died for my ☼Cave Spider Silk Cloak☼! Urist McSnailpoker: I hate my job...

Though you might want to up the productivity just a bit.

The fire snake idea seems viable, though catching an aquatic vermin would be... tricky at the best. Are ocean beaches a valid biome?
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Ladygolem

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 07:09:45 pm »

Salt (NaCl) occurs in-game is Rock Salt, a relatively rare mineral.

Nearest reasonable analogue is Potash, which is primarily composed of KCl.

_____

Here is what I would do:

Add the following tokens to your creature (I am assuming you are using the standard snail RAW plus your own modifications)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1)  Murex Snail --> Murex Dye Gland Glob (obtained through butchering)

2)  Murex Dye Gland + Potash --> Snail Dye

3)  Red Snail Dye + fuel --> Imperial Purple Dye


You can set a series of reactions that call on an object having the EXTRACT_DYE_MAT material reaction product (and the REFINE_DYE_MAT too), so that in addition to your tyrian purple, you could mod other dye sources into the game that use the same reaction series.

Just my two urists, have fun!

This is absolutely brilliant! Thank you so much! I was considering making them vermin so that the dye could be an extract a la mog juice, but this way you can set up a snail breeding program (I guess these snails aren't hermaphroditic like the others!) not to mention they won't become *unnnumbered* thus limiting their rarity + exclusiveness.

Quote
"twelve thousand snails of Murex brandaris yield no more than 1.4 g of pure dye, enough to colour only the trim of a single garment."

Dang. Decadent much? Seems like something dwarves would do! Urist McKingy: A million snails died for my ☼Cave Spider Silk Cloak☼! Urist McSnailpoker: I hate my job...

Though you might want to up the productivity just a bit.

The fire snake idea seems viable, though catching an aquatic vermin would be... tricky at the best. Are ocean beaches a valid biome?

Aquatic vermin are already easily caught by the fishery's 'catch live fish' command. Yes, it is actually used for something, I know!


EDIT: I think I've found a compromise: vermin are still butcherable as long as they don't have [SMALL_REMAINS] - the only vermin to currently exist is the creepy crawler, which gives meat and a bone, iirc. This way, they can still be captured by fishermen, but can then be butchered! I think.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 07:23:59 pm by Ladygolem »
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Grimlocke

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 07:28:20 pm »

Both sound functional enough then, though if you use the VERMIN any civs near it will start producing them in endless numbers.

Possibly you could give the VERMIN only a very small yield and add a rare giant murax snail for producing larger quantities?
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Wannabehero

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2014, 07:29:47 pm »

I'm all for having a herd of snails running around your fortress.

Think of all the delicious snail eye roasts! 

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Grimlocke

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2014, 07:37:54 pm »

Sludgebatter the Rounded Slithering, War Snail.
   Slayer of 4 poor kobold thiefs and 1 goblin kidnapper who frankly deserved it.
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Ladygolem

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2014, 07:53:12 pm »

Both sound functional enough then, though if you use the VERMIN any civs near it will start producing them in endless numbers.

Possibly you could give the VERMIN only a very small yield and add a rare giant murax snail for producing larger quantities?

Ah, but as a fish they would only produce processed, ready to cook versions. Or prepared organs and meat. Do caravans bring raw organs?

Ladygolem

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2014, 08:27:31 pm »

So, here are the raws as I've put them together, thanks Wannabeahero for doing the material work!

Code: [Select]
creature_murex

[OBJECT_CREATURE]

[CREATURE:MUREX]
[DESCRIPTION:A small predatory sea snail with a long, spiny shell.  It is known for producing a rich purple dye.]
[NAME:murex:murexes:murex]
[CASTE_NAME:murex:murexes:murex]
[CREATURE_TILE:249][COLOR:7:0:1]
[PETVALUE:15]
[VERMIN_FISH][FREQUENCY:10][VERMIN_HATEABLE]
[AQUATIC][NOBONES]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_WALK_CRAWL_GAITS:9000:8900:8825:8775:9500:9900] 1 kph
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_CRAWLING_GAITS:9000:8900:8825:8775:9500:9900] 1 kph
[NATURAL]
[CANNOT_JUMP]
[BIOME:OCEAN_TEMPERATE]
[POPULATION_NUMBER:250:500]
[PREFSTRING:long, spiny shells]
[PREFSTRING:royal hues]
[BODY:BASIC_1PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD:SHELL]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS]
[REMOVE_MATERIAL:HAIR]
[REMOVE_MATERIAL:BONE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SHELL:SHELL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_COLOR:ALL:TAUPE_SANDY]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
[REMOVE_TISSUE:HAIR]
[REMOVE_TISSUE:BONE]
[USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SHELL:SHELL_TEMPLATE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:MOLLUSC_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:FAT:MUSCLE]
[HAS_NERVES]
[MUNDANE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:ICHOR:ICHOR_TEMPLATE]
[BLOOD:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:ICHOR:LIQUID]
[CREATURE_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[GETS_WOUND_INFECTIONS]
[GETS_INFECTIONS_FROM_ROT]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUS:PUS_TEMPLATE]
[PUS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:PUS:LIQUID]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:200]
[BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
[MAXAGE:2:3]
[ALL_ACTIVE]
[NO_SLEEP]
[NO_DIZZINESS]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:GLAND:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:dye gland]
        [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:EXTRACT_DYE_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:DYE]
        [STOCKPILE_GLOB]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:DYE:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:snail dye]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:DARK_SCARLET]
        [DISPLAY_COLOR:4:0:0]
        [MATERIAL_VALUE:30]
        [POWDER_DYE:DARK_SCARLET]
        [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:REFINE_DYE_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:ROYAL_DYE]
        [POWDER_MISC_CREATURE]
        [PREFIX:NONE]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:ROYAL_DYE:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:imperial purple dye]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:PURPLE]
        [DISPLAY_COLOR:5:0:0]
        [MATERIAL_VALUE:50]
        [POWDER_DYE:PURPLE]
        [POWDER_MISC_CREATURE]
        [PREFIX:NONE]

[EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT:BY_CATEGORY:GUTS]
   [EBO_ITEM:GLOB:NONE:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:GLAND]


[CASTE:FEMALE]
[FEMALE]
[CASTE:MALE]
[MALE]
[SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
[SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SHELL]
[TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:CREAM:1:TAUPE_SANDY:1:WHITE:1]
[TLCM_NOUN:shell:SINGULAR]
[SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN]
[TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:WHITE:1:TAN:1]
[TLCM_NOUN:skin:SINGULAR]

I'm keeping them VERMIN_FISH for now, but it's easily removed if that will cause issues. I'm also trying to figure out if I can change the dye to be extractable, as that's what makes sense given the type of creature the murex is.

EDIT: Wait, what if instead of the gland being a butchery item, it were simply set to an extract, without further modifications? like so:
Code: [Select]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:GLAND:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:dye gland]
        [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:EXTRACT_DYE_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:DYE]
        [STOCKPILE_GLOB]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:DYE:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:snail dye]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:DARK_SCARLET]
        [DISPLAY_COLOR:4:0:0]
        [MATERIAL_VALUE:30]
        [POWDER_DYE:DARK_SCARLET]
        [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:REFINE_DYE_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:ROYAL_DYE]
        [POWDER_MISC_CREATURE]
        [PREFIX:NONE]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:ROYAL_DYE:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:imperial purple dye]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:PURPLE]
        [DISPLAY_COLOR:5:0:0]
        [MATERIAL_VALUE:50]
        [POWDER_DYE:PURPLE]
        [POWDER_MISC_CREATURE]
        [PREFIX:NONE]

[EXTRACT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:GLAND]

That hinges on whether or not you can extract a solid from a creature, which I'm not sure of. Is there anything stopping having a vial full of a solid item?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 08:55:09 pm by Ladygolem »
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Grimlocke

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2014, 09:04:59 pm »

The wiki claims the extract 'Defines a creature extract which can be obtained via small animal dissection.'

Should work for vermin, won't work for large creatures though.
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Ladygolem

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Re: ~Tyrian Purple, The Dye Of Emperors~
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2014, 09:21:24 pm »

Yes, I am aware. I mis-phrased the question; what I meant was: can a "creature extract" (that is, not a plant one) be a solid, and still be processed into a vial? I don't see why not but raws are finicky.
Also, I changed the initial material definition slightly, so that it gets put in a more obvious stockpile:
Code: [Select]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:GLAND:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:dye gland]
        [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:EXTRACT_DYE_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:DYE]
        [LIQUID_MISC_CREATURE]
[DO_NOT_CLEAN_GLOB]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:DYE:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:snail dye]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:DARK_SCARLET]
        [DISPLAY_COLOR:4:0:0]
        [MATERIAL_VALUE:30]
        [POWDER_DYE:DARK_SCARLET]
        [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:REFINE_DYE_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:ROYAL_DYE]
        [LIQUID_MISC_CREATURE]
[DO_NOT_CLEAN_GLOB]
        [PREFIX:NONE]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:ROYAL_DYE:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:imperial purple dye]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:PURPLE]
        [DISPLAY_COLOR:5:0:0]
        [MATERIAL_VALUE:50]
        [POWDER_DYE:PURPLE]
        [LIQUID_MISC_CREATURE]
[DO_NOT_CLEAN_GLOB]
        [PREFIX:NONE]

[EXTRACT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:GLAND]

That will make it be listed under "Extract (creature)" rather than "Fat". I've applied this to the processed dyes as well, to keep them together - while I understand the intention of giving them POWDER_MISC_CREATURE to match up with how other dyes are POWDER_MISC_PLANT, this will only make them show up on stocks screens and stockpiles as "Bone meal" which is pretty misleading.

As it's now a vermin extract, I also took the liberty of removing the butchery items.
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