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Author Topic: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill  (Read 2332 times)

Leatra

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Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« on: December 02, 2014, 11:46:05 pm »

As I mentioned in the Dwarf Fortress 0.40.19 Released thread.

Animal Caretaking skill isn't doing anything at the moment. Until animal healthcare kicks in, it would have a purpose, and gelding animals sound like what an Animal Caretaker would do.

Besides, the profession "Gelder" sounds too specialized. I'm not exactly going to be delighted at getting a legendary gelder immigrant. Vets do emasculate animals, so it's not like Crossbow-making which can't be incorporated into Carpentry because a good carpenter doesn't mean a good bowyer IRL, since they require different skills.
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Nasu Toad Snatcher

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2014, 03:26:37 pm »

I want anything to do with animals, including training, butchering, shearing, cheese-making etc. put under a labor category called "rancher."

Since hunting, gathering, fishing and woodcutting take place out in similar areas (with similar risk) I think those should be grouped together as well, maybe as "outdoors dwarf" or something like that.

But there should be overlap with the various labors, like threshing and should be under both "farming" and "tailoring," as spinning should be under "ranching" and "tailoring" and cheese-making and butchering should under "ranching" and "food preparation."

Get me? I feel it should be about supply and demand, so if the regular thresher dwarf is sleeping, it won't stop the weaver from doing it so he can continue his work. But still have job prioritization and specialization so that the high master clothier isn't making pig tail fiber thread and the novice weaver making robes.

So to make a short answer very long, and then make it short like it should've been in the first place, I think Toady's gonna fix the gelding thing when he get's rid of the "v-p-l" method of labor management as promised.

Hm, that was a lot of thought I put into that. I should've posted it as my own thread. >_<
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smeeprocket

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2014, 03:30:42 pm »

I want anything to do with animals, including training, butchering, shearing, cheese-making etc. put under a labor category called "rancher."

Since hunting, gathering, fishing and woodcutting take place out in similar areas (with similar risk) I think those should be grouped together as well, maybe as "outdoors dwarf" or something like that.

But there should be overlap with the various labors, like threshing and should be under both "farming" and "tailoring," as spinning should be under "ranching" and "tailoring" and cheese-making and butchering should under "ranching" and "food preparation."

Get me? I feel it should be about supply and demand, so if the regular thresher dwarf is sleeping, it won't stop the weaver from doing it so he can continue his work. But still have job prioritization and specialization so that the high master clothier isn't making pig tail fiber thread and the novice weaver making robes.

So to make a short answer very long, and then make it short like it should've been in the first place, I think Toady's gonna fix the gelding thing when he get's rid of the "v-p-l" method of labor management as promised.

Hm, that was a lot of thought I put into that. I should've posted it as my own thread. >_<

but that doesn't make sense, hunting and fishing are very different, whereas animal caretaker should encompass gelding.
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Dyret

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2014, 06:29:21 pm »

I think gelding should be based on wrestling and biting. It's the dorfy way.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2014, 06:30:38 pm »

I think gelding should be based on wrestling and biting. It's the dorfy way.

I agree with this completely.
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Graknorke

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2014, 07:33:05 pm »

Superfluous skill is superfluous. Given that the skill level doesn't even seem to have much of an effect.
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Deboche

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 10:48:31 am »

I want anything to do with animals, including training, butchering, shearing, cheese-making etc. put under a labor category called "rancher."

Since hunting, gathering, fishing and woodcutting take place out in similar areas (with similar risk) I think those should be grouped together as well, maybe as "outdoors dwarf" or something like that.

But there should be overlap with the various labors, like threshing and should be under both "farming" and "tailoring," as spinning should be under "ranching" and "tailoring" and cheese-making and butchering should under "ranching" and "food preparation."
It makes sense especially for jobs the end product of which isn't dependent on skill. The dwarf would decide what to do based on what's most necessary at the time.

And if the priorities are fixed as they appear to be from Toady's new updates, it's not so important to have a dwarf doing just one single job because you want to make sure it gets done quickly(butchering before the corpses rot for example), you just move it up the priority list.
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Naryar

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 07:47:58 pm »

A good part of the skills need to be merged. he're how I see a merge:

Mining
Masonry
Stone Detailing => goes into Stonecrafting
Carpentry
Crossbow-making => goes into Weaponsmith
Woodcutting
Animal Training
Animal Care
Ambusher (hunting)
Trapping => goes into Ambusher
Small animal dissection (most useless skill ever) => goes into Butcher.

All healthcare jobs are fine.

Butchery
Tanning
Farming(Fields)
Dyeing => goes into Clothier
Soap Making => goes into Alchemist (new job)
Wood Burning => goes into Furnace Operator (not exactly the same thing, but similar)
Potash making => goes into Alchemist
Lye making => goes into Alchemist
Milling => goes into Plant Processing
Brewing
Plant Gathering
Plant Processing
Cheese Making (should have quality levels)
Milking => goes into Farmer
Shearing => goes into Farmer
Spinning => goes into Weaver
Cooking
Pressing => goes into Plant Processing
Beekeeping => goes into Farmer

Fishing
Fish Cleaning => goes into Butcher
Fish Dissection => goes into Butcher

Metalsmithing is fine.

Jewelry is fine.

Crafts are fine, but Glazer should go into Potter.

Engineering is fine, but Pump Operating shouldn't be a skill.

And there, the rest I am fine with.










vjmdhzgr

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 08:59:18 pm »

I think that if there's a skill that's going to be under use constantly it should not be merged with another skill. An example I think trapping shouldn't be combined with hunting because if one wants a trapper, but not a hunter that becomes impossible since hunter is a constant job that you don't designate it just happens. Farming also shouldn't be merged because first, the skills you're suggesting to be merged into it are completely different from farming crop fields and second if you have a farm dwarves are going to be farming it and you can't tell them to not farm it without ruining that season's harvest so you'd end up with situations where you have a strange mood or a food shortage and you need yarn or cheese, but the dwarves just won't stop farming plants. I do think fish cleaning and dissecting could be merged, but not into butcher because again, if you have fisherdwarves your fish cleaner will be cleaning fish constantly and will just ignore the 50 animals you need to butcher before they have even more children and the population goes out of control, and your FPS plummets. Spinning going into weaving might be okay, but again weaving goes on basically constantly once you open the caverns so maybe not. I don't like Crossbow-making into weaponsmith either because I've heard that they're very different skills, and also it would be pretty much free training for your weaponsmiths which I think would be too good since weaponsmithing is one of the most important skills and getting legendary weaponsmiths with the only cost being the most common resource and that being outweighed by spare crossbows being a good trade good.
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Naryar

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2014, 05:32:53 am »

Farming also shouldn't be merged because first, the skills you're suggesting to be merged into it are completely different from farming crop fields and second if you have a farm dwarves are going to be farming it and you can't tell them to not farm it without ruining that season's harvest so you'd end up with situations where you have a strange mood or a food shortage and you need yarn or cheese, but the dwarves just won't stop farming plants.

I proposed for farming to be a new skill and not actually Farming (Fields). That is the grower skill and yes they need to be separate.

I do think fish cleaning and dissecting could be merged, but not into butcher because again, if you have fisherdwarves your fish cleaner will be cleaning fish constantly and will just ignore the 50 animals you need to butcher before they have even more children and the population goes out of control, and your FPS plummets.

Then you need more dwarves with butcher activated. There is literally nearly no difference between butcher, fish cleaning and fish dissecting.

I don't like Crossbow-making into weaponsmith either because I've heard that they're very different skills, and also it would be pretty much free training for your weaponsmiths which I think would be too good since weaponsmithing is one of the most important skills and getting legendary weaponsmiths with the only cost being the most common resource and that being outweighed by spare crossbows being a good trade good.

Fair enough, then metal crossbows need to be set up to Crossbow-making as well. So crossbow-making isn't completely useless once you have a few good weaponsmiths.

IndigoFenix

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2014, 11:01:23 am »

I think that the 'Animal Caretaker' skill should basically be the skill to handle, calm, and subdue animals overall.

It would be figured into any job that involved handling an animal - gelding, slaughtering, animal surgery (not currently implemented but should be at some point), and to a lesser extent milking, shearing, and animal training.

When doing any of these jobs, there would be a chance of the animal getting angry and attacking the worker, potentially even going wild for a short period (similar to a tantrum) where they might attack nearby dwarves.  This chance would be much higher when gelding or slaughtering.  The animal caretaker skill would reduce the chances of this happening.

Each of these jobs would train both the animal caretaker skill as well as another, related skill.  For instance, any surgery on an animal would also train the regular surgery skill that would be involved in doing the same operation on a sapient creature.

Parhelion

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2014, 07:17:20 pm »

I feel some of the suggestions here go a little too far, such as the combining of hunting and fishing, or bee keeping with farming, as I feel these activities require skill sets that are simply too different. 

I do agree with the OP that 'gelding' should be an included part of 'animal caretaking.'  It was not, and is still not, unusual for a herdsman out in the middle of nowhere to know how to castrate his own animals, because the process is relatively simple and safe.  Honestly, I think 'animal caretaking' should reflect a rancher's skills, and should include: husbandry (increasing stats/health/tame-ability of offspring, and direct control of who mates with who, maybe one day we'll have this?), preventing offspring death (again, possible future addition), triage, infectious care, gelding, safe capture and leading, animal hauling, proper feeding, and milking.  Perhaps having a skilled animal caretaker interacting with animals on a regular basis will even actively improve those animals: improving growth size for young critters, increasing fatness, hardiness, strength, etc.

I have mixed feelings about shearing being a separate skill, because contrary to sounding easy, you can really mess this up if you don't know what you're doing and not a quality (or even useable) product.

Anyway, long story short:  I approve of OP's idea. ;)
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Deboche

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 07:33:10 pm »

I feel some of the suggestions here go a little too far, such as the combining of hunting and fishing, or bee keeping with farming, as I feel these activities require skill sets that are simply too different. 
This makes perfect sense but it's always going to be a matter of where you draw the line. Realistically, making stone blocks isn't gonna make you better at making statues and the same goes for smoothing floors and walls making you a better engraver.

Beekeeping is not so complex a task that you'd need as long a time to become a master as something like metalsmithing, architecture, crafting and so on. If you have not so complex tasks, might as well group them together so that overall they become a group of skills that would require that long to master.

Anyway, I'm not a beekeeper so what do I know?
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Parhelion

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 08:24:24 pm »

I feel some of the suggestions here go a little too far, such as the combining of hunting and fishing, or bee keeping with farming, as I feel these activities require skill sets that are simply too different. 
This makes perfect sense but it's always going to be a matter of where you draw the line. Realistically, making stone blocks isn't gonna make you better at making statues and the same goes for smoothing floors and walls making you a better engraver.

Beekeeping is not so complex a task that you'd need as long a time to become a master as something like metalsmithing, architecture, crafting and so on. If you have not so complex tasks, might as well group them together so that overall they become a group of skills that would require that long to master.

Anyway, I'm not a beekeeper so what do I know?

Well, I think part of the issue here is the difference between a 'skill' and a 'profession.'  A profession can encompass many skills, and some professionals are better at certain tasks within that profession than others.  I like the way things are now, but that's because I can use something like dwarf therapist to create my own 'professions' that fit the style of my particular fort.

Most crop farmers don't actually know how to keep bees, and many bee keepers don't have a clue what to do with cattle or goats.

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Putnam

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Re: Incorporate Gelding skill into Animal Caretaking skill
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2014, 04:04:15 am »

I think that the 'Animal Caretaker' skill should basically be the skill to handle, calm, and subdue animals overall.

It would be figured into any job that involved handling an animal - gelding, slaughtering, animal surgery (not currently implemented but should be at some point), and to a lesser extent milking, shearing, and animal training.

When doing any of these jobs, there would be a chance of the animal getting angry and attacking the worker, potentially even going wild for a short period (similar to a tantrum) where they might attack nearby dwarves.  This chance would be much higher when gelding or slaughtering.  The animal caretaker skill would reduce the chances of this happening.

Each of these jobs would train both the animal caretaker skill as well as another, related skill.  For instance, any surgery on an animal would also train the regular surgery skill that would be involved in doing the same operation on a sapient creature.

So like fighting and archery, then?

Seems good.
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