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Author Topic: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.44.12) - Revision 7: Guns & Fashion  (Read 82221 times)

peasant cretin

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2015, 03:18:48 am »

He didn't remove it completely. Grimlocke has an entry for leather cuir bouilli armor in this mod. It does have a 500 layer size to make it work. I'd wager the guess that the [UBSTEP:0] means it's a cuirass of sorts.

What Grimlocke may have been getting at, was the idea of generic leather referenced by most games/cable series/books, which owe some of their lineage to Gygax's D&D and Tolkien (who may or may not have had the "everything armor is mail" baggage of the Victorians). Gygax didn't have the easy access to information we have now, so Gygax went with what he went with--but then he did that quite a lot with things he wasn't well versed in, which is what we all might do. He'd need Matt Easton to travel back in time...

Leather, in the period referenced, was also used in lamellar/laminar armor. I did notice the lamellar used here is only [METAL], [SCALED], [BARRED], but not leather which makes sense if the layer size is going to be 10. For leather lamellar to "sort of" work, the layer size would have to be rather high and require a separate entry.

----------


One other thing: this is a great mod and this thread has been fantastic :D Much thanks!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 03:25:07 am by peasant cretin »
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2015, 08:26:19 am »

Heheh, pretty much what peasant said above.

Though you could argue cuir bouilli is not actually leather. It is not cured like regular leather is and although the exact method was lost in time, various people made attempts at reproducing it and it yield a material a bit like hard plastic. How exactly or from when it was used is really hard to tell, but I made it to be cuirass wearable over mail coats.

Its not hugely protective on its own so it seems far more likely to be used as additional layer of protection, like a precursor to the coat of plates.

Edit: Oh and thanks for the kind words ^^
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 09:56:02 am by Grimlocke »
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The13thRonin

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2015, 09:55:46 am »

Removed leather armors - No kids, regular tanned leather doesn't protect you for a damns worth.

This is simply not true. Throughout the Middle Ages leather was treated with materials such as beeswax to harden it. It was actually pretty decent at stopping cutting and to a lesser extent piercing attacks. It was not as good at protecting against chopping or blunt attacks though.

Also you're discrediting it as an armor solely based on its protective value... But how much value would you place on an armor allowing you not to get hit in the first place? Leather armor was lighter and more flexible allowing soldiers to be more speedy on the offense and defense during battle.

In the Middle Ages usually anywhere from 50-90% of armies were made up of peasantry who could not afford and did not have the training to buy and make use of plate mail. Many soldiers wore leather armor, arming shirts underneath and a shirt of chain-mail if they were really lucky.

Soldiers lives were certainly saved throughout history in many battles due to having the rudimentary protection that leather armour provides.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 09:58:06 am by The13thRonin »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2015, 11:39:38 am »

Well, I'm not going to fight Grimlocke's battle for him, but as a mod designer, he ultimate has to decide what he believes should be included.

In the time period that he set the mod, peasant armies were starting to be replaced by mercenaries and leather armor was being replaced by the Cuir Bouilli armor that he included.  The leather armor seen on movies is just that: Hollywood magic.  Plus, ability to move was not very useful in the massed peasant levies that would be using it.

At least that is my 2 cents.  Its not like I was present for any of the Middle Ages.

...
Transitioning into a favor: Grimlocke, my knowledge of the weapon design system in Dwarf Fortress is...lacking.  And in my mod,  Of MultiBeasts and Renassance, the smaller beastfolk can not use all the wonderful weapons you've not objected to the blatant theft allowed to be incorporated into my mod.  I'm looking for a few more of the smaller weapons of the late Middle Ages, weapons that Men-At-Arms would call sidearms but HamsterMen-At-Arms would use as primary weapons.  If I run across anything specific, I'll let you know.

I'm also thinking of implementing firearms+ammo that can be purchased but not created.  Once I figure out what a small early Renaissance firearm would be called (Spermwhale Men could carry cannons into battle and fire them like crossbows).
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2015, 07:26:54 am »

@The13thRonin: Which is why I mentioned regular tanned leather. Leather used for protection would most likely not be tanned but boiled before the step of tanning it, the exact process is unknown but the resulting material was supposedly a hard but somewhat brittle material. I think in some parts of Europe it was worn as lamellar armor, but more common in west-europe was the cuirrass, likely because the cuir bouilli gave at least a limited amount of protection against blunt impact.

The argument about 'nibleness' is... not completely rubbish, but as its often understood still mostly rubbish. If a man at arms wanted to be nimble, he would get a brigandine instead of a plate cuirrass. Possibly replace a hounskull helmet for a kettle helm for visibility, but anything below that would almost certainly not have been done to be more nimble. You have to keep in mind that as a soldier in the middle ages, there not a lot of one on one combat. There was a whole lot of getting shot at, poked at by pikes and other polearms and getting run down by cavalry before there was even any hand to hand combat at all, and for none of that your niblety would be much use at all. Archers and crossbowmen intently aimed for formations with less armor and being in that formation would be an absolute hell nobody would be in voluntarily. Games often hugely overstate the encumbrance of heavier armor and give all sorts of contrived advantages to the leather-clad fellow with daggers because they want to strike a gameplay balance, not because of any historic precedent.

The most common protection for the poor folk was quilted cloth, or sometimes coats with densely stuffed horse hair. These are in the mod as the gambeson, aketon and various other items, and they were not actually such terrible protection.

It is also important to note that as EuchreJack mentions by the late middle ages, say end of the 100 years war or war of the roses, pretty much everyone going to battle had at least some form of metal armor. Metalworking advanced had advanced a lot, people became richer and military leaders started to realize the value of professional, well equipped soldiery. Though the vicious peasant revolts in that era did make up for the lack of peasant slaughtering (poor, poor peasants...)

Anyhow, my main reasons for not including much leather armor: Padded cloth armor was far more common, likely more effective and easier to make in larger numbers. Also the weird studded leather fetish game and movie makers seem to have for anything medieval really needs to stop.


@EuchreJack: Most of the one-handed weapons in this mod were generally used as a sidearm. So the daggers but also one-handed warhammers, estocs, arming swords, etc. Longbows are obviously out of the questions but crossbows should be ok (and might be your best bet as ranged weapon damage is not affected by creature size).

You could have them use the lighter onehanded weapons with two hands like this, if your human is 70000 size and your hamsterman 20000 size:

Code: [Select]
[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT]
[NAME:modern arming sword:modern arming swords]
[ADJECTIVE:short]
[SIZE:105]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:40000]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:250:5500:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:900]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:5:1]
[ATTACK:EDGE:9:5000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:400]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:5:1]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:30:0:strike:strikes:pommel:1400]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:5:1]

This arming sword could be used by any creature larger 15000, but they will get a stat penalty for not holding it with two hands unless they are larger than 40000.

Keep in mind, creatures have a variable size. Length and broadness apply a multiplier to the creature size so a particularly short and skinny hamsterman may be below 15000 size and unable to wield the sword still.

Portable firearms of the time where the handgonne (also called hand cannon) and arquebus (also called hackbut).
The handgonne was basically tiny cannon, either socket mounted onto a staff or mounted on top of a crossbow stock. They were fired in various ways, some over the shoulder, some against the shoulder, against the chest, etc. They were the very first hand-held firearm, VERY inaccurate and and at most a had simple serpentine as firing mechanism (an S shaped bit of metal with a lit fuse on the end, hinged in the middle so the gunner could hold the gun with both hands while firing it). They were almost only useful in sieges and were often used along with a pavise and other sorts of wooden defenses. There is a also some pictures of riders using a staff-mounted handgonne as a mace, which I suppose makes sense.

Arquebuses were a bit more advanced, they had a narrower barrel and a full stock. It generally looked like a shorter musket. It more commonly came with a firing mechanism, usually a snap-matchlock (a small metal arm with a fuse, held up by a spring and released by a trigger), but there are still some examples that just had to be fired just by pressing a fuse to it.

Both of these were used alongside in the 15th century, and it is important to note that these still had trouble piercing well-made plate armor.

Implementing them into DF might be a bit of a pain, the way I did it was to make a ranged weapon with no ranged skill but it confused the game and the handgunners never brought ammo with them.


Well, this post ended up being long. I hope its interesting for someone!
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EuchreJack

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2015, 01:00:28 pm »

Oh, it was very interesting!

For the record, the following weapons can usually be used by all beastfolk, regardless of size, since minimum size is around 35000 (beastfolk size is the average of the animal and 70000, which is human-sized)
Code: [Select]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT_EARLY]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_ESTOC]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_DAGGER_LARGE]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_DAGGER_RONDEL_MISERICORDE]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE_NARROW]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_CRESCENT]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_CRESCENT_HEAVY]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_STABBING]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE_SHODCLUB]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE_FLANGED]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE_SPIKEDCLUB]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MORNINGSTAR]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR_LIGHT]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_PICK]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_WHIP_FLAIL_BALL]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR_AWLPIKE]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR_BEAR]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BLOWGUN]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPADE]
[WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HATCHET]

Spade and Hatchet are my inventions to allow woodcutting and mining, although the Hatchet is redundant as there actually are usable axes.
Interesting facts:
Smaller beastfolk can not use crossbows, but can use bows.
Smaller beastfolk have access to at least one weapon of each type (after adding Spades for the miners).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 01:02:25 pm by EuchreJack »
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2015, 05:07:09 pm »

*checks* hmmm, it seems I neglected to give the crossbows a more sensible minimum size.

Bows need a certain arm length to be drawn, the little hamstermen just won't be able to pull the bow string far enough for the arrow to do much at all. Crossbows have no such limitation.

Pickaxes are generally also not all that large and heavy, someone has to swing them around all day in a tight space after all. If you want, you are of course completely free to adjust the weapons and armor to your needs. I didn't give a whole lot of consideration to tiny creatures when making this mod, so if you can sort this out nicely I could even 'steal' your changes back and have a more widely applicable mod  :P

Also if you find a way to separate logging axes and war axes, do let me know. Its a very silly thing to try and cut down a tree with a battleaxe, they are far too lightly build for that.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2015, 07:11:56 pm »

I guess if a battleaxe was listed as a polearm, it wouldn't be used to cut down trees.  Otherwise, I do not have any solutions.

I used Meat Cleavers as a template for the Hatchets, so their dimensions are probably inaccurate.

I actually believe the pickaxes are probably too large for the little guys, and have no problems with them using Spades instead.

Actually, I was considering creating Pocket or Small Crossbows, as they were not all of a uniform size in the Middle Ages.  Blowguns aren't exactly ideal versus armored foes.  They were used in cultures with little armor, after all.

I'll probably do some Arena testing with the Hamsterfolk.

In case you are curious, I added the following two Aztec armors:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Armor from similar time period but different culture.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 07:14:05 pm by EuchreJack »
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #98 on: November 01, 2015, 11:49:00 am »

If want the Aztec armor to be a substantial protection, you may want to increase the coverage or layer size a good bit. Armor layer thickness is directly taken from its total volume, regardless of how many limbs it covers. Which is a really weird system but oh well.

The gambeson has a total volume multiplier of 13140, the aketon of 8750. This is the value I use to balance out individual armor pieces and its calculated like this: LAYER_SIZE * COVERAGE * 1.25 ( UPSTEP + LBSTEP + UBSTEP )

So the escaupil would have 4 * 600 * 1.25 = 3000, and the eagle suit 4 * 250 * 2.5 = 2500

Also note that it is possible to wear 3 eagle suits at once like that heheh. It would be fanciness overload!
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EuchreJack

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2015, 05:58:42 pm »

Thanks for the advice: I was wondering how to make the Aztec armors outperform standard Vests.

Proposed edits that I basically threw together:
Code: [Select]
[NAME:escaupil:escaupils]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UBSTEP:0]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:600]
[LAYER_SIZE:14]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:8]
[SOFT]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_EAGLE]
[NAME:eagle suit:eagle suits]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[UBSTEP:MAX]
[LBSTEP:MAX]
[LAYER:OVER]
[COVERAGE:450]
[LAYER_SIZE:6]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[SOFT]
[LEATHER]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD]

What I'm looking for:
Escaupil should be able to stop some arrows, preferably metal ones.
Eagle Suits are mainly for show, but should provide some protection combined with Escaupil.

Dimensions:
Escaupil should be small but thick.
Eagle Suits should be large but thin.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 06:10:09 pm by EuchreJack »
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2015, 03:10:58 pm »

To make them more effective, just make them bigger. I would recommend just using the same total volume as the gambeson, so setting the coverage to 750.

At that point they will stop some arrows, though not all. I don't really like how it works right now though as there seems to be little to no damage falloff at range, so you either have a bow and arrow that go through something every single time, or not at all. Right now ranged weapons are more powerful than they realistically are, and there is little to no reason to use any other projectile than the armor piercing ones. The broadhead arrows and bolts do more tissue damage, but are largely useless against armor and were historically also used only to hunt. Also plant fiber are kind of rubbish for cloth armors right now.

So uh, might be some work to be done there for me, though some of it (like ranged damage falloff) is well out of my control.

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EuchreJack

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2015, 01:02:45 pm »

I changed the coverage for both to 750.  Not sure if that will make the Eagle Suits more protective than the Escaupil, which is the opposite of what I would like, but I suspect both will be mostly terrible armor and thus the player won't notice much difference.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2015, 01:40:57 pm »

I think armour stacking should be reduced, if not eliminated. Wearing 3 eagle suits should at least heavily restrict mobility.
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Max™

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2015, 03:25:11 pm »

I think Stal used the trick of setting the layer permit and layer size values to limit that.

It even works to enforce armor ordering. I can't wear a hauberk (just a renamed mail shirt) with leather armor and a dress and a breastplate, but I can wear a breastplate with a dress, though if I'm wearing the breastplate it prevents putting on a hauberk, while doing it the other way works.
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's Historic Arms & Armor (0.40.xx) - Revision 3c
« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2015, 01:54:04 pm »

@Max™ and @Urist Tilaturist: This mod eliminates all non-realistic armor stacking. Meaning you can never wear two of the same type of armor, or stack armor that would get in each other's way, but you can for instance wear a surcoat over a coat of plates, over a mail coat, an aketon and an undershirt. This is how this particular armor was worn.

In fact I really would not recommend wearing just armor. It would be hideously uncomfortable and very susceptible to blunt impact damage. And that's not even considering certain parts getting stuck between plate armor joints, brrrr!

The way this is done is weirdly enough by setting the layer size higher than the layer permit, as layer permit is read from the higher layer of armor/clothing already worn.
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