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[123nick]

why do the iron millecorde quincella things or whatever they are called have very slow attack speed ? arent they supposed too be like, quick dagger-sword things?

[KillzEmAllGod]

c_variation_default was missing Modest Mod's creature attacks, here.

[Grimlocke]

Clarification on the modest mod patch: Its for modest bodies only. Modest mod attacks would break much of the balancing done by this mod and likely not fit in the first place.

I do really need to write up a guide/manual on the metallurgy mod and all the weapons and armor. Ill write up a quick guide somewhere in the next 24-ish hours.

@123nick mmm, sounds like food of some sort. In more seriousness, the daggers are not actually slower. Weapons get a longer wind-up time the shorter they are, and a shorter wind-down time to compensate. The total attack speed is still lower than the larger weapons but sadly the in-game attack menu doesn't reflect this in any way.

It may sound odd, but think of it this way: Between a guy with a long spear and a guy with a little dagger, who takes the longest to get a stab at the other?

[KillzEmAllGod]

The attacks were just for animals.

[123nick]

Clarification on the modest mod patch: Its for modest bodies only. Modest mod attacks would break much of the balancing done by this mod and likely not fit in the first place.

I do really need to write up a guide/manual on the metallurgy mod and all the weapons and armor. Ill write up a quick guide somewhere in the next 24-ish hours.

@123nick mmm, sounds like food of some sort. In more seriousness, the daggers are not actually slower. Weapons get a longer wind-up time the shorter they are, and a shorter wind-down time to compensate. The total attack speed is still lower than the larger weapons but sadly the in-game attack menu doesn't reflect this in any way.

It may sound odd, but think of it this way: Between a guy with a long spear and a guy with a little dagger, who takes the longest to get a stab at the other?

ah i see, so its like, simulating reach somehow? because the long spear can easily and quickly stab you with a quick jab, where as dagger have too get close in and make quick arm movements?

[KillzEmAllGod]

Clarification on the modest mod patch: Its for modest bodies only. Modest mod attacks would break much of the balancing done by this mod and likely not fit in the first place.

I should clarify that I used your files and added in the modest mod's changes for materials were just boiling and melting points (so undead would melt) and the leather changes MM did. the c_variation_default mainly adds secondary attacks for animal people. So they really shouldn't impact balance that much.

Metallurgy could just use a chart like this, other then that it was figuring out how to use the crucble funace and the whole finery options wasn't clear ended up with alot of pattern-welded steel bars which seem to have no use. Appears that they can be used for weapons but not armor.
What appears to be a bug for metallurgy, it wasn't showing up the iron ores as a metal(s) in the embark screen, though that could be MM's fault. The ores did also come up in other stone for dfhack.

Are there plans to add more crossbow varriants such as the repeating crossbow quick shots low accuracy and penetration to the arbalest?

[Grimlocke]

Flow charts are kind of how I planned on doing this yes, especially the armor would get... wordy if I had to describe every possible layering combination.

The ore part was probably my doing. I had to remove the default metal ore tag to keep the game from generating a smelter job for them, which would bypass the bloomeries and blast furnaces. Its another case where one tag is used to do a whole bunch of things at once, which is a big posterial pain for modders. If anyone can figure out a way around this I'd be glad to hear it.

I did consider new crossbows, but so far there is no way to control ranged weapon behaviours like range, accuracy, rate of fire, etc. At least not with raw modding. DFhack may be able to do more, but I still need to figure out how to use that to any effect. Having arbalests and such would be pretty cool though...

Anyhow, Ill be including your modest mod patches to the next release and give you a mention in the credit line, thanks for the contribution!


@123nick Pretty much! A good opening tactic would be to move into range, block the first attack and then riposte. Its still kind of simplified compared to real life, where going up against a spear with a dagger is pretty much suicide, but it does give long weapons an edge (heh).

[KillzEmAllGod]

Theres just 3 problems both of them can be rather annoying, the naming of the weapons causes them to not show the length they are the adjective is isn't shown untill after its created so its problematic for the ones that are short and long. The other problems is some items just don't belong to a stockpile such as slag and its variations and will just be put in any stockpile.
The other being adrenaline simulation with it being activated rather oddly, every dwarf seems to do it at the same time throughout the game might be more of a side effect of it existing.

What do I need to do to make goblins only show up in armor?

A few of the buildings seem redudent, I do remember masterwork had an interesting way of progress for things and that was done through trading designs of some of the buildings, though that might be too annoying to do. Crucible can be very annoying to use because of all the bags required.

[Grimlocke]

Thanks for the feedback!

I have actually been considering moving the weapon adjective to the rest of the name, but am haven't because it looks rather clunky in the actual item name.

The adrenaline part is sadly out of my control, I don't know why its going off like that but its apparently how the game handles interactions with the attack usage hint. I might turn off the tile blinking though, it was intended to make clear a dwarf was in or near a fight, but as it is it goes off for the whole fortress whenever another stupid bird flies over it.

Goblins showing up with hardly any armor is kind of a game-wide defect. Armies are almost entirely consistent of unskilled, poor soldiers and armor uniforms that are set per-civilization for lord knows what reason never use any limb armor. I have been pondering the option of making a separate set of armor for goblins that is basically just metal clothes and padded armor. The naming would get weird and your civilians will also think its clothing and replace their xPigtail Dressx with a goblin plate cuirrass, but the added weirdness might be worth it if it makes sieges an actual challenge again.

I do plan on expanding the requirements for the more advanced buildings and reactions, making a simple fort start out with pit bloomeries and simple wrought iron and working their way out to a full-fledged metal industry. Ideally, I want to this to require a skilled architect and furnace operator, but raw modding isn't going to suffice for it.

Slag is just a stone type, it can be stockpiles as any other boulder.

[KillzEmAllGod]

The naming doesn't matter so much you pretty much have to use truetype when forging, funny enough the adjective does show up on the uniform screen.

Sounds like that might be worthwhile to do for goblins, should also add the ambusher tag back to them so they attack way more often.

I was talking about the iron-rich slag which doesn't belong to any type of stone category.

[Grimlocke]

Ah, right. I made the iron-rich slag just a rock of iron, to save on having to make a new material for each in every metal in the future.

Did not consider stockpiling. Looks like I'll have to make a metal ore material for them after all...

The issue with the adjective-names is not so much the length, but just that I think 'steel long arming sword' sounds a lot more awkward than 'long steel arming sword'.

I'll do some science of the goblins, and see if there is a satisfactory minimum weirdness solution to it. Would be good to have something to use all this new stuff on 

[KillzEmAllGod]

With the name you're not going to be able to change it seeing as DF does items first by what its made of.

Done anything with the goblins so far? I do remember seeing goblins showing up with metal helms, think someone may have got their goblins in their mod by removing clothing options. 

Where do you stand on fantasy metals or is that just not your thing?

An easy way to do a guide for doing correct uniforms would just be to list the Size, Permit, and layering for armor rather then just all the combos. Would just need to tell us the max for the limbs etc.

[Grimlocke]

The adjective actually lets us get around that 'material name, item name' thing as it goes before the material name. But yeah, it doesn't show up in the workshop menu, likely to save on space and since the game uses the adjectives only in front of already unique names.

I have given the goblins a bunch of faux-clothing armor (basically armor with no armor level), which should in theory show up the same way as masks and such do. Sadly in my test world the goblins still manage to scrounge regular clothes from lord knows where, its certainly not in their entity files. Yesterday I gave it some thought and figured the goblins I saw may have been conquered and somehow ended up under a human entity, so I'm giving that another try with some added playable race tags to gobbos. On the off chance that this works, I need some names to distinguish the goblin armor that don't sound overly fantasy. Right now I just made it all 'Crude plate cuirass' and such, but I'm certainly open to suggestions.


As for fantasy metals, I'm no huge fan of the rather... overused tolkien-esque metals (mithril and such), mostly because I don't find them all that interesting. They quickly obsolete real-world metals just by virtue of 'its majik, snort' yet somehow they feel so utterly mundane.

I like magic to be a bit more dark, unstable and dangerous to use. Something that would take considerable knowledge and skill to get right, and always carries the risks of something going horrendously wrong. I wouldn't object to magical materials that are difficult and risky to make, and actually have properties that make them both unique and balanced against real-world metals. For instance, Possesed Iron could make for good armor, but would give the wearer an increased tendency for hallucination and other fits of madness.

Magic should be like twisting the laws of nature out of shape and like said laws fighting back.

Though obviously none of that has much of a place in a 'History & Realism' mod, that's not to say this is the only mod I'll make.


The armor layering sizes are of course visible in the raws, but won't be all that... readable without knowing exactly how these interact. A flow chart would probably be a lot clearer.

[Taffer]

I'd intended to update the mod but only item_tool.txt and reaction_other.txt changed this release.

Don't have any time to play with things at the moment, but thank you for the historic metallurgy addition and the nice update.

[Grimlocke]

This mod should still be fully compatible with the new version, though I will be adding the additional shields to the new adventurer carpentry reactions and adding the wooden weapons for the fun of it. Too bad we can't place spike traps yet.

I will be releasing that with an update to the mod which will include substantially up-armored goblins (got the 'civilian armor' trick to work!) and some minor tweaks here and there.