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Author Topic: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.44.12) - Revision 7: Guns & Fashion  (Read 82333 times)

DaSwayza

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #300 on: November 26, 2017, 09:23:45 am »

I just ran a rought test, it looks like we're good to go, it looks like it is compatible. You might not be able to make the modified steel pedestals maybe, but I can think of better uses for meteoric steel lol.
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DoomOnion

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #301 on: November 28, 2017, 09:41:50 am »

http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13242

Here's an unofficial update and minor tweaks to Grimlocke's History and Realism Mods + DF Revised.

I've dug through the file changes since the last version, and made changes to the appropriate files. This was originally intended for personal use, but I decided to share. If any of the original authors feel uncomfortable with this being distributed, I will take it down.

Since this was for personal use, I made several changes to the mod(s). Here are the changes:
  • I've removed all of the macro reactions from DF Revised, since I don't find myself using it.
  • I've added [EDIBLE_COOKED] to all fruit seeds. I know that they are not supposed to be edible, but considering there is no use for them and that it would mean at least 400+ seeds sitting around taking space, I felt there was a game mechanic necessary to get rid of them. Consider this a band-aid solution.
  • Steel making has been streamlined. I got rid of the messy requirements of ground glass, charcoal, and sand, and removed slag from the mod entirely. After vigorous play testing I found them to just get in the way, simply tedious for the sake of realism which added very little to the core gameplay. As for balance, reactions which required ground charcoal, glass, and sand now have increased need for charcoal. Since iron containing slag is also removed, lower tier smelting will now yield slightly lower.
  • Short arming sword's plural form was just arming swords, which made things hilariously confusing on the military equipment screen. It has been fixed.

This is a one-off thing and likely not going to be maintained.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 09:45:29 am by DoomOnion »
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DoomOnion

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #302 on: December 02, 2017, 06:21:28 am »

A few things I want to make a note on.

First of all, I'd like to open by mentioning that all the historical treatises and recordings refer to as various types of swords like two-handed swords, longswords, bastard swords, hand-and-a-half swords as... you guessed it, swords. Whereas attempts at classifying swords came in the Victorian era. There were(and still are in museums as surviving examples) numerous swords that had their own specifications. A smith back then didn't use a graphical software to get the blueprint just right and used a pressure cutter and a power hammer to mass produce identical swords; no, they were sized and forged by a person. Naturally, it's almost guaranteed that no two swords were technically the same.

However, Ewart Oakeshott's classification of swords based on their developmental background(origin and time period) was a small step forward in studying of swords. Although it suffered from the Victorian idea common in sciences back then that all things given time naturally progress and become more complicated, and its classification is a bit too linear and rigid in nature, it still offered a clear, identifiable view into the development of swords throughout European medieval ages. That said, there are a few things I wanted to talk about in this mod's use of terms, particularly related to swords.

The greatsword entry was particularly interesting to me, since the mod tries to be a 14th to 15th century mod. I was looking at the raws, and noticed that minimum size to use one handed was a whooping 140,000 cube cm. Which is only 10,000 short of being as big as a gorilla. I thought to myself, 'Alright, that's fair.' But then I looked at the minimal size to use, and realized that it was set to 75,000. This is a problem in largely two factors.

The first is that due to a bug in DF's code right now, a creature's broadness and height modifier is not taken into account to determine who can use what equipment. Within the current version, it is only used for determining if it's used one handed or two handed. Which means even humans who as a species average at 70,000 cube cm cannot use a greatsword in fortress mode regardless of their actual size. Under pervious versions this was not an issue given how they are not playable. Since the update a couple months back, we now get human mercenaries and citizens, so this is definitely an issue.

The second factor is that the definition of a greatsword in this sense. What I got out of the 75,000 size classification was that you designed it after this. Unfortunately, this is the sort of a greatsword used in the 16th century. (Even the way it was used was quite far being swordlike, it was closer to being used as a thrusting pole weapon with double grip. But this is a different topic for another day.) However, according to Oakeshott's study, the weapons most commonly referred to as Espčes de Guerre, "Grete Swords", or more commonly as greatswords in the early 14th to early 15th century was Type XIII and XIIIa swords. Here are examples of the swords. Type XIII had a shorter grip and shorter blade, while type XIIIa had a longer grip. They were only roughly as big as a late medieval longsword.

There rises a question: then, how do you justify separating a greatsword and a longsword? Concordantly, how do you define a bastard sword and a longsword? To answer all these, it'll take at least a few more forum posts that no one will muster the will to read, so I will keep it concise. The answer is you need to understand the historical context and the way the weapons were used. Fortunately for us, we have a specific historical context, and all we have to do now is look up how they were used, and abide by that clear definition and work the mod around it. Here's what I propose you do:

Remove the bastard sword entry entirely: as it stands, it bridges the gap between an arming sword (which is a name given to one handed swords in the 15th century, excellent work there) and a longsword. However, the idea that bastard swords were two handed swords that could be used in one hand if necessary is largely a myth. The problem with that definition is that, as you've seen above, pretty much all sword barring really small ones could be used both one-handed and two-handed. (This is likely why all swords except arming swords were referred to as nondescript 'swords' back then) There is only one certain source iirc that specifically refers to a bastard sword as its own thing, and even then it was said to have earned it uniqueness to having a special type of blade (which wasn't explained in great detail). Needless to say, there is no surviving example of bastard swords. Change longsword's stat so that a portion(upper half?) of human population, not dwarves, can use it one handed.

With that, the greatsword's size and one-hand/two-hand requirements should be brought down to be same as the longsword's new stat. Well, what is the difference between a longsword and a greatsword then? You might ask. In that specific historical setting, the difference would be in how the weapon was used. As you saw the Type XIIIa sword, you would have noticed that the point was rounded. It was not a thrusting sword. Remove the greatsword's thrusting attack, and either leave it's edge attack alone, or bring it down slightly to suit its new size better.

Of course, it's all a mere suggestion, but do have a look and decide yourself if realism is the paramount concern.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 06:53:15 am by DoomOnion »
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #303 on: December 03, 2017, 10:01:52 am »

I return!

From vacation, right in the middle of which there was apparently the .44 release. It doesn't seem like the mod should need too much adjustment for the newest version, thank be to DaSwayza for giving basic functionality a test! From the file changes file it seems I only need to merge in some entity file changes.

@DoomOnion As I mention in the OP, anyone is free to modify, fork and distribute the mod, provided they don't start asking money for any of it. I'm more interested in people actually enjoying this mod and DF by extension than in my own 'glory'  ;)

I do of course reserve the right to merge back any changes that I like, such as that typo correction for short arming swords. Oops.

As for the two-handed swords, I'm honestly not entirely sure what the idea was behind the size requirements for the greatsword (and kriegsmesser). Its supposed to just be a larger longsword, just like the 'bastard sword' is just a name I used for a smaller longsword. I am aware that swords at the time were not made to any standard pattern, the 'bastard sword, longsword and greatsword' mostly just denote varying sizes of longsword. The game would become very confusing very quickly if I just named everything 'sword'. I did consider making the greatsword more slash-focused, but that would have it be functionally identical to the big messer.

Two-handed and one-handed use is... not really implemented in a very satisfying way in DF in my opinion. ANY melee weapon can be used with one or two hands, even something like a poleaxe can still be used to thrust with one hand. Thing is, I can't set a per-weapon or what would be even better, a per-attack two-handed use modifier. I considered actually setting a ridiculously high two-handed size for every weapon and giving smaller weapons a boost in attack power to compensate for the one-handed use malus, but that didn't feel quite right since something like a threshing flail should get considerably more out of two-handed use than a short arming sword.

As for the crucible steel reaction, from the perspective of historical accuracy it would be best to just remove it or not use it if it feels to tedious. Crucible steel was a whole lot more tedious to make than even in this reaction. Its there as an end-game material, if your just equipping your first wave of cannon fodder brave militia, you should probably just use the regular 'steel' which represents the kind of steel actually used in Europe.
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DoomOnion

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #304 on: December 03, 2017, 10:24:24 pm »

A few more bugs I found while I was raw-diving.

Two of the new reactions from finery(I think?) yield BOULDER:IRON. It just pops out a stone boulder made of iron, whereas I have a hunch you meant to have it yield iron-rich slag.
Meteoric iron is missing reaction class tokens so they never get worked in Fortress mode. I noticed that there's a fix posted, but given it's been a few months it's a bit baffling to not see it included in the main version.
All weapon's third perspective combat message refers to the user as 'his', not accounting that the user can be of any sex. Change it to 'their'?

Not sure if this counts as a bug, but another tid bit. None of the ground material get stockpiled properly.

and also:
Due to the minimum size to use being set as 75,000 for greatswords and possibly more weapons, even humans cannot use it regardless of one hand or two hand usage in fortress mode. This needs fixing.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 10:31:52 pm by DoomOnion »
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Taffer

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #305 on: December 03, 2017, 10:38:09 pm »

Change it to 'their'?

Nothing to add, but agreed on singular "their" if the sentences can't be rephrased. His/her is barbaric, and I dislike assuming male.
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Asin

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #306 on: December 12, 2017, 07:37:40 pm »

Grimlock, I think there is a bug. I'm trying to add to my Goblinoids and Orcs mod, which uses your mod (and credits it too), but when I gen a world, dwarves are referred to as humans, elves have gods, and other strange things. This happens after world-gen, in legends.

Random_Dragon

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #307 on: December 12, 2017, 07:42:03 pm »

Um. Question. How can you actually have eye or neck-covering helms? There is no token allowing a helm to extend coverage beyond the head, and attempting to apply the existing "extend coverage" tokens to them will cause an errorlog report as these tokens don't work for helms: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10234

See also, the fact that FACE VEILS do not in fact cover the face.
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #308 on: December 13, 2017, 12:02:50 am »

@Random_Dragon: The face-bits attached to the head are broken in kind of a particular way. The EMBEDDED tag on them are supposed to give them the armor protection of the host bodypart, but this only seems to work for the eyes (probably due to being defined first). There seems to be no way to extend this to the other parts of the face, so I just made those internal instead. It is no longer possible to bite off someone's nose, a great loss indeed, but your adventurers and militia dwarves also won't inevitably end up with no nose, ears, etc. Danger room training also shouldn't act as instant defacing ritual either, though its still frowned upon :)

Edit: Helms don't cover the neck in my mod either, sadly. I moved that function to the body armors.

@Asin: Kinda sounds like a duplicate entity entry. I know my mod doesn't add any races and definitely doesn't produce anything like that on its own, so you may want to check if any of your new races use vanilla raw entry names.

Not much else I can think of that does that sort of stuff. If its not that, maybe describe what's happening a bit more so I can get an idea where its coming from.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 12:31:07 am by Grimlocke »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #309 on: December 13, 2017, 02:41:10 am »

> internal ears

Why did that make me wince a bit. An unnervingly clever way to do it, I guess.
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.44.02) - Revision 6c
« Reply #310 on: December 20, 2017, 09:15:58 pm »

Update out! It has the various suggested fixes and balances (yes, including the greatsword one), adds descriptions to metallurgy reactions and updates to 44.02.

Also yes, internal ears! Like birds. Or maybe just ears with a layer of skin over them. Ew. Best not to think about it too much.
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Amostubal

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.44.02) - Revision 6c
« Reply #311 on: December 21, 2017, 07:30:28 am »

awesome! I see you added the jug reactions.
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Amostubal

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.44.02) - Revision 6c
« Reply #312 on: December 21, 2017, 01:47:13 pm »

interesting notes:
1:  removal of scaled and barred from ITEM_SHOES_SPLINTED:
  - stops the use of shell and bones to make this item.
2:  item_weapon.txt - attack description errors:
  line 1138 & 1313 - "your with blade" needs to be "your blade with" | "his" needs to be "their"
  line 1313 - "guard" needs to be "crossguard" to match with the others
3:  reaction_adv_carpenter.txt errors:
  line 255 - "[NAME:make wooden training short sword]" needs to be "[NAME:make wooden training bastard sword]"
  line 262 - "ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT_TRAINING" needs to be "ITEM_WEAPON_BASTARD_TRAINING"
  missing reaction:
 
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:MAKE WOODEN PEDESTAL]
[NAME:make wooden pedestal]
[ADVENTURE_MODE_ENABLED]
[BUILDING:CARPENTER:NONE]
[REAGENT:log:1:WOOD:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[ANY_PLANT_MATERIAL]
[REAGENT:tool:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[PRESERVE_REAGENT][HAS_EDGE]
[PRODUCT:100:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_PEDESTAL:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:log:NONE]
[PRODUCT_TOKEN:pedestal]
[SKILL:CARPENTRY]
[CATEGORY:ADV_CARPENTRY]
4:inorganic_metal.txt:
  lines 84, 86, & 89: not sure why they was replaced as NONEx4...  not sure if that was intentional.
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pikachu17

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.43.05) - Revision 6b
« Reply #313 on: December 21, 2017, 04:05:57 pm »

Change it to 'their'?

Nothing to add, but agreed on singular "their" if the sentences can't be rephrased. His/her is barbaric, and I dislike assuming male.
But isn't that inaccurate, as "their" is plural? How about "its", which is gender-neatral and singular.
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Grimlocke

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Re: Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods (0.44.02) - Revision 6c
« Reply #314 on: December 21, 2017, 05:03:34 pm »

interesting notes:
1:  removal of scaled and barred from ITEM_SHOES_SPLINTED:
  - stops the use of shell and bones to make this item.
2:  item_weapon.txt - attack description errors:
  line 1138 & 1313 - "your with blade" needs to be "your blade with" | "his" needs to be "their"
  line 1313 - "guard" needs to be "crossguard" to match with the others
3:  reaction_adv_carpenter.txt errors:
  line 255 - "[NAME:make wooden training short sword]" needs to be "[NAME:make wooden training bastard sword]"
  line 262 - "ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT_TRAINING" needs to be "ITEM_WEAPON_BASTARD_TRAINING"
  missing reaction:
 
Code: [Select]
[REACTION:MAKE WOODEN PEDESTAL]
[NAME:make wooden pedestal]
[ADVENTURE_MODE_ENABLED]
[BUILDING:CARPENTER:NONE]
[REAGENT:log:1:WOOD:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[ANY_PLANT_MATERIAL]
[REAGENT:tool:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[PRESERVE_REAGENT][HAS_EDGE]
[PRODUCT:100:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_PEDESTAL:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:log:NONE]
[PRODUCT_TOKEN:pedestal]
[SKILL:CARPENTRY]
[CATEGORY:ADV_CARPENTRY]
4:inorganic_metal.txt:
  lines 84, 86, & 89: not sure why they was replaced as NONEx4...  not sure if that was intentional.

1: I removed the 'barred' tag because I suspect it was responsible for this item showing up as 'cloth partial plate leg harness'. That was the only item giving me that issue, and also the only non-deprecated item that still used the barred and scaled tags.

2 and 3: Gah. Forgot there were training weapons in the game.

4: That was likely what was causing the weird iron boulders to appear. I also removed slag production from pig iron being hammered.`

Thanks for spotting these, will fix them in due time.


@pikachu17: 'their' is the generally accepted policor ungendered pronoun. I think it sounds kind of impersonal and unfriendly, but DF doesn't give me any way to make gendered attack text so it will have to do.

I don't quite get the remark about barbarism either, but please don't really need those discussions here, there's the general bay12 forum for that.
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