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Poll

Should it exist?

Yes
- 81 (90%)
No
- 9 (10%)

Total Members Voted: 90


Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10]

Author Topic: Minimal wage - should it exist?  (Read 7250 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #135 on: June 24, 2016, 04:24:05 pm »

So low single digits, yeah.  People aren't poor because minimum wage is too low, they're poor because they're unemployed or underemployed.

Well in all fairness... If your living off minimum wage... your poor by definition.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #136 on: June 24, 2016, 09:54:48 pm »

I am going to keep coming up with bad ideas until people fill in what we should have INSTEAD of minimum wage as a sort of stop gap against worker exploitation for low income individuals.

I think you already have an answer.  Perhaps it is worth thinking through the implications.

snip replace minimum wage with unconditional basic income snip

One notable outcome is that the Great Toad would have some competition, and no doubt there would be a veritiable flourishing of independent projects not bound by corporate agendas - music, art, perhaps even low budget science or works of philosophy.  Then more people wouild lose their jobs and get on the bandwagon.

There would still be work but it would be a proper market with supply and demand rather than the current system of being forced to sell at whatever the law mandates (aka slave labour).  The disappearance of work which has been underway historically now for several centuries would take on a new and unreservedly positive meaning.

Okay, I'm sure there will be lots of differing opinions but it is a real answer and a real alternative candidate (unless you are thinking only of a two-horse trumped up poltical debate).
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alway

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2016, 02:09:23 am »

Relevant:    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/#2e8810007cd8 
Or to phrase it another way.
Walmart employs 1.4 million in the US. This comes out to $4400 per year per employee, even if we include managers and executives and such non-minimum wage workers, and even if we include non-full time employees (which these days, is most retail employees). This means that, at bare minimum, the US taxpayer is picking up a full 1/3 of Walmart's labor costs and paying for them for the sole benefit of company profit margins.
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Strife26

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2016, 10:05:47 am »

The fun truth of the matter is that, even amongst the witch magic that is economics, no one has a clue what universal basic income would do. People would still be willing to get shitty jobs for the extra money, but how many and what would happen to the job market?
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Jimmy

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2016, 10:19:36 am »

If companies have to pay more to their staff, the prices of stuff they sell goes up. If prices go up, stuff staff need to buy costs more than minimum wage can pay for. If minimum wage can't pay for stuff, minimum wage has to be increased. Rinse, repeat.
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Frumple

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2016, 10:32:55 am »

N... not really how pricing works. Prices can only go up so much, particularly in the short term, before consumers give the company trying it the finger and either go to another company that's willing to make smaller margins to keep sales up (and there's good reasons to do that even if the raw profit is kinda' iffy), start seeking substitute goods, or just go without.

Further, with a increase in market buying power, even with reduced gain per unit sold from higher employment expenses it's very likely overall profits still increase. Unless, of course, the idiot company decides margin is more important than profit (in which case they'll be outperformed and irrelevant in short order).

So... no. Market forces aren't nearly that simple. Profit calculation doesn't work like that, at least to any substantial degree.
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mainiac

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2016, 01:18:27 pm »

If companies have to pay more to their staff, the prices of stuff they sell goes up. If prices go up, stuff staff need to buy costs more than minimum wage can pay for. If minimum wage can't pay for stuff, minimum wage has to be increased. Rinse, repeat.

Because there is a 100% correlation between minimum wage payrolls and the cost of putting an item on the shelves?

In reality the number is probably closer to like 10%.  I am glad to know that this was your intellectually honest reason for opposing minimum wage increases.  Now that you have learned that leakages exist I'm sure that your views will change, right?  No way you will come back and repeat this exact same argument again and again and again...
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PTTG??

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #142 on: June 25, 2016, 01:26:10 pm »

The naiveté of the OP is staggering. I honestly feel like I've been hit in the chest with a sack of wet carpet.

I need a minute here...

OK, I don't have the time or the inclination to reconstruct your entire world-view from the depths of whatever Conservative Crime Squad upbringing you've had, but I can, at least, address the issue of minimum wage.

Let's assume, for a moment, that there exist a class of people who would be employed below minimum wage that are simply cut out of the market. If, as you suggest, eliminating the minimum wage would cause them to be employed, would they be able to survive at that income?

Let's see... $5.00/hour, working 12 hours a day (multiple jobs, none of which count as a full-time position because, remember, the employers are trying to pay people the least possible amount), that's $60 a day, let's be generous and give them 6 days a week for $1440/mo. Low, low one-bedroom apartment is $500/mo, plus average monthly for a car (mandatory in the US, especially if you have several jobs) $479, plus gas (a full tank every two weeks if you're lucky) $60, plus car insurance ~$100. Food's a necessity, of course. The low end for food is $544/mo... At this point, you're already down $200 a month, working like a dog and living like one, too.

The fact of the matter is, the poverty line* in the US, for a family of 4 with two kids**, is $22,162 annually. If we assume that people, even poor people, deserve humane working and living conditions, then that's ~2080 billed hours a year. Do some simple math and tell me if even $7.25 is enough. Remember, one person has to stay home and take care of the kids, or else find daycare that costs less than he or she would make!

This whole argument is a race to the bottom -- a race the United States cannot win. Our only choice is to function like a real, grown-up society. One where the government exists to provide an environment where people can thrive. Eliminating the civil protections we've worked so hard to build is not the way to achieve this. The fanciful assertion that the only reason companies aren't hiring is that Americans are too pretentious for the labor is laughable, as is the assumption that removing the minimum wage would cause companies to hire enough people to cause a net increase in payroll payouts.

*Meaning if one unexpected expense arises, you will be impoverished, but for now you're able to survive.
**You can't do financial planning for the whole nation as if it were made of lonely internet trolls.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 01:28:21 pm by PTTG?? »
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #143 on: June 25, 2016, 01:54:37 pm »

The fun truth of the matter is that, even amongst the witch magic that is economics, no one has a clue what universal basic income would do. People would still be willing to get shitty jobs for the extra money, but how many and what would happen to the job market?

Where is your universal income coming from?
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Shadowlord

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #144 on: June 25, 2016, 02:09:18 pm »

How the fuck did this get to 10 pages?
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Frumple

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #145 on: June 25, 2016, 02:10:06 pm »

Read and find out :V
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Shadowlord

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Re: Minimal wage - should it exist?
« Reply #146 on: June 25, 2016, 02:21:03 pm »

I originally read the first 3 or so pages - but conversationally, nothing meaningful was happening, soooo...
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