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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 855189 times)

Willfor

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9600 on: January 04, 2016, 07:23:37 pm »

Well, I've been among the posts calling out double standards rather than actual blood, and am far more interested in this being a good point of comparison to how minorities are treated in general. However, I also see the whole schtick of turning one's nose up at the whole idea that people might be angry as the same kind of inhuman (or rather, all-too-human) response that allowed racial biases to crop up amongst the colonially minded in the 18th and 19th centuries. "Oh, what is this anger emotion? Everyone would be better off not venting anything. Beep boop."

It's not the anger or the emotion that bothers me. Hey I've got plenty of raw disgust for both the militia involved & for some of the posts I've read above. It's the fact that I'm pretty sure some of the posters here would actually like to see this turn bloody. That they think a bloodbath here will actually solve the problems. A few posts here seem to hold an uncanny similarity to the attitudes of the idiots in the building with guns.
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RedKing

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9601 on: January 04, 2016, 07:29:41 pm »

Yes, idiots trying to provoke some kind of apocalyptic martyrdom with the government = people who wouldn't mind seeing them get their wish. You've found me out, I'm secretly a left-wing pro-government militiaman from Mirror Universe. Evil mustache and everything.

If they had showed up unarmed, more power to them. As said previously, I actually kind of sympathize with the Hammonds and think they're getting a bit of a raw deal. But when these nutters showed up armed and started spouting confrontational macho bullshit rhetoric, they lose any and all sympathy and become a threat.

Civil disobedience != armed occupation by paramilitaries. I still can't fathom why that's so hard for some people to grasp. This is not equivalent to Occupy Wall Street or BlackLivesMatter or protesting the Iraq War. It's more akin to ISIS or eastern Ukraine.
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wobbly

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9602 on: January 04, 2016, 07:37:14 pm »

Yes, idiots trying to provoke some kind of apocalyptic martyrdom with the government = people who wouldn't mind seeing them get their wish. You've found me out, I'm secretly a left-wing pro-government militiaman from Mirror Universe. Evil mustache and everything.

The mustache would look weird on a mechanical owl.

But when these nutters showed up armed and started spouting confrontational macho bullshit rhetoric, they lose any and all sympathy and become a threat.

This part I agree with. What I'm unsure of is why you think the threat is best handled with the maximum chance of bloodshed? & why you think other situations handled badly mean this should also be dealt with badly?
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nenjin

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9603 on: January 04, 2016, 07:49:17 pm »

They've already said they'll die before leaving.

They've already said they'll shoot at anyone trying to remove them.

At what point do you stop wringing your hands over the cost of human life and face facts that they've precipitated this situation and are dictating the terms of engagement? They don't even have a coherent demand to be met.

At that point, it's a question of whether you go in there and establish the authority of the US government, or you back off because you don't want bloodshed and these guys effectively have held the US government response at ransom over a Wildlife Refuge. What happens the next time it's a post office, a government office building or they decide to take hostages instead of waiting until the holidays when a building is empty?

And seriously. No one has said they just want the government to open fire. That's bullshit inserting of motives so people who feel squeamish about it can claim a moral high ground. Try actually debating what is being said instead of inserting a strawman. At least what Redking and I want is for the government and law enforcement to go in there, do their fucking jobs and establish order. At least put up a fucking perimeter so the crazy stays at the refuge instead of getting frozen pizza from the local supermarket, so their fucking charade can go on for 6 months.

After a while it starts to look like complicity by inaction. Never before have I seen armed gunman take a federal property and the government's response was to not be fucking present at the scene after two solid days. Someone, for the love of god, explain that one to me. Because right now it's like the government considers this anything but a crime.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 08:04:08 pm by nenjin »
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RedKing

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9604 on: January 04, 2016, 07:51:56 pm »

If there are no real consequences for this action, you're going to see copycat actions pop up all over. They'll perceive restraint as weakness.

Doesn't have to be bloodshed, but it needs to be a solid and decisive takedown. Knockout gas the place and then move in, use sonic guns on them or whatever. But just waiting them out and then watching the prosecution get dragged out for years and/or no real penalty being applied is not a satisfactory resolution, IMHO.
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mainiac

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9605 on: January 04, 2016, 08:04:28 pm »

If there are no observable deterrence effects of gun ownership on crime or deterrence effects of drone strikes on Islamic radicals, why would you expect deterrence to work here?  What makes these people seem unusually rational or intimidatable?
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Frumple

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9606 on: January 04, 2016, 08:07:59 pm »

Think it was RK that already mentioned the apparent effect of stuff like the Waco hit, which was the rough parallel used. Something like that, anyway, it was a few hours back and I'm only half paying attention at the moment. Previous observed effectiveness would seem to be the response, there.
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mainiac

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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Frumple

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nenjin

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9609 on: January 04, 2016, 08:44:28 pm »

Turns out they do have at least two demands that are tangible things. They want the US Government to relinquish control of the Refuge (so they can get back to huntin' and ranchin' for free), and they want the rest of the Hammond's sentence commuted.

Some serious freedom they're fightin' for.
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Ispil

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9610 on: January 04, 2016, 08:55:25 pm »

So... they want the refuge to be... not part of the US park system and instead private land, or independent of the US proper?
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Egan_BW

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9611 on: January 04, 2016, 08:56:43 pm »

So they want to not go to jail please, and have nothing to hold hostage in exchange.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9612 on: January 04, 2016, 09:07:59 pm »

If there are no observable deterrence effects of gun ownership on crime or deterrence effects of drone strikes on Islamic radicals, why would you expect deterrence to work here?  What makes these people seem unusually rational or intimidatable?
Well, for one thing, gun ownership isn't universal, most criminals don't look up what percentage of people own guns in their area, and actually in one town that implemented mandatory gun ownership (yes you heard that right), crime rates did go down. Of course, the number of crimes (as an absolute number, and as a proportion) that ended in violence and injury to the victim became higher.

Drone strikes are 'oh hey they killed my buddy'. They probably have a wide deterrence effect that's offset by the fact that it's not everywhere at once. People who are going to do a bad thing judge on the likelihood of their punishment more often than the severity, after a certain level of severity.

Also, this mostly just reminds me of the Waco siege, except with less pedophilia and legitimate ownership of the land, which ended badly for everyone involved, and I'm really hoping it takes a better route. Like not killing all of them. FAKEDIT: Someone already mentioned Waco, I guess. Oh well.
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Rolan7

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9613 on: January 04, 2016, 09:10:42 pm »

So they want to not go to jail please, and have nothing to hold hostage in exchange.
Except themselves, since they know they (some of them?) will become martyrs if the government uses force.  Heck even if it's nonlethal.  If they go to jail for as long as they deserve, militias everywhere are going to be up in arms.  Maybe Mormons too?

It's pretty disgusting but I won't be surprised if it works.
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nenjin

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Re: Ted Cruz's Netflix and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #9614 on: January 04, 2016, 09:12:29 pm »

not part of the US park system and instead private land?

This. I assume they want the Fed give up ownership of the land and turn it over to the State, so they can either buy it or argue with their own state that it should be a public common ground they can ranch and hunt on for free. This is really what it's all about: money.
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Quote from: Rumi
Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, and so I am changing myself.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
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