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Tribal crafting (warcrafter / fletcher / bloodforge)

Training (bloodbowl / weights / anatomical theatre)

Freelancers (guild / drydock / labor cells)

Core industry (molten pit / factories / blacksmoke / outlander ghetto)

Advanced weaponries (damasc forge / steamfoundry / warrior society)

Caravanserai

Dreamwalkers (totem pole / temples / arcane forge)

Barbarian tech (ashglass / ancient foundry / nethermill / treesingers / fluid source / etc.)

[smakemupagus]

Please share any comments you have about Orc Fortress mode, especially suggestions relating to the ongoing major Masterwork overhaul.  I will keep an eye on the old thread too, but I started this new one so that I can control the poll.

Note, there's not really any major overhaul to Orc mode planned, but it's certainly going to be as good a time to implement any changes as another, so feedback welcome as always.

[smakemupagus]

To do for 0.40.x update

* Orc creature update
* Entity update
* Weapon update / balance check
* Orcish pet creatures and plants update
* New DFHack adaptation for magic and summoning/creation
* Learn whether there is any new mechanism to replace counter-sieges that avenge raids.  May not be possible.
* (...?)
* http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149429.msg6108350#msg6108350

To do related to MDF update

* Revert to pre-MDF3 magic reagent system not using souls/scalps (vanilla materials should be sufficient)
* Re-implement any important materials or items that are no longer in MDF "core"; see how Meph's development goes first.
* Maybe, "nerf" lamellar and bonemold materials/industries by a moderate amount, if i can do it in a way that is easily compatible with MDF changes.
* Maybe remove some clay working reactions from Muckraker since Meph re-implements vanilla claywork
* Change raid loot tables to reflect changes to other civs, as appropriate
* Treesinger's Pagoda will probably change dramatically.  Check also anywhere else that works with wood (nethermill, factory, goblin saw)

To do related to streamlining / maintainance

* Combine blood extraction with anatomical theatre?
* Combine steamfoundry with heavy weapons armory? 
* Reevaluate tavern and meadhall once we know what Toady's inn does (warrior societies and special meads will stay; rest is TBD)
* If HWA and Tavern are both removed, then maybe consider a new Human themed barbarian tech blueprint to pillage. (i think orcs would be able to get behind the Human concept of crusade/holy war, for example...)

To do related to new or changed features

* (...?)

[vonsch]

I don't find the current training buildings very useful. I like the concept, but the skill gains don't justify not sparring or setting up a training pit. 

Anatomical theater might be the exception, but not even using that one at the moment. If it were the blood collector I would definitely be using it all the time. Several probably.

A thought...

Maybe an arena building that you feed a captive (from a cage) and assign an "operator" that will be the duelist. Have it walled until one is dead, then (hmm, might not be possible) open a door or bridge.

Or even if it were a 1x3 "gate" building that we could build into our own arenas, the inputs (caged prisoner and the gladiator) exit one pre-designated side (dump the cage and prisoner both into exit side, along with the appointed gladiator) and we manage the walling and exits and cleanup ourselves. The existing manual system of a pit zone with a bridge (for a door... or two if one for the gladiator) is just cumbersome and I think it could be streamlined to cut the micromanagement with an addition of the sort. But may be too complicated for the available mechanics.

[Weirdsound]

A few thoughts for the new version:

If you are thinking of nerfing the bone-metals, you might want to tinker with the Freelancer Prices as well. As of right now, the process of selling cloth and totems, buying steel swords, and melting them down seems easier than making actual bloodsteel to me. Perhaps not as efficient, but fewer steps are involved and less fuel is used. An interesting mechanic would be to make the Freelance and other trader stations more expensive to use when the siege tag is active.

As sieges are now tied to actual army movement, and Orcs need to kill sentient things for scalps, I'd consider adding options to deliberately provoke sieges at the Drydocks (perhaps Slaughter Settlement, which produces scalps, meat, and a very high siege chance if successful). That way, if a player wants to set up shop at the edge of the world, they don't have to rely upon the relatively small chance of winning the war declaration lottery if they wish to lead their Orcs into glorious battle. Even, and especially, if counter-seiges are no longer possible, it might be prudent to include the option to raid for scalps for forts unlikely to meet the enemy early on.

An idea for human looted buildings if you wish to replace the tavern would be to make the Ronin and Artisan castes much more rare, buff them, and allow the player to train them from Uruks/Regular Orcs respectively at the proper (blueprint looted) building - perhaps call it the academy. Perhaps rename the former caste 'Crusader' if you go that route.

[smakemupagus]

Thanks for replies.  It's interesting, I get remarks about the training grounds being both over- and under-powered, so I guess that people use them differently.  But you have to commit to doing it on a pretty significant scale, like 4 or 6 benches, if you want to see real results.  They're hard to balance because there's nonlinear response -- once your skills are decent, you train faster and faster.  I don't want it to really replace other kinds of training, so maybe I err on the side of slightly underpowered.

Still, personally I get a lot of use out of the training 'shops for skills that are hard to train by sparring or live training ... that is, block, armor, dodge, kin sense, melee.  Like, getting some new recruits up to rank ~2 or 3 in skills so that they can spar without screwing up all the time, and without being sad about the draft.

@vonsch, your gladiator idea might or might not be possible, but I don't know how to do it.  i like DFHack stuff but am not too involved with development of it, so i try to stay away from it for things that have a decent workable solution with vanilla mechanics.

[IndigoFenix]

One simple fix for the scalp system: just use totems.  As long as bones aren't standardized, you can select those from individual races.

The training grounds make sense for attribute training (weightlifting for strength, etc.)  For skills,  probably not.  There is already a system for sparring, after all.  Orcs can maybe learn combat skills a little faster to make their sparring more effective, and personality could fix the issue of being sad about the draft.

Transformations are messy,  I'd avoid them whenever possible.  Regular syndromes can change a creature's size,  attributes, and abilities, no need to give them a free full heal as well.

[Weirdsound]

One simple fix for the scalp system: just use totems.

My concern is less 'the scalp system is complicated' and more 'now that invaders are tracked, some forts will not get them for a looooooong time'. If it is at all possible under the new system, the Orcs should simply have some means of reliably provoking a siege or otherwise gaining scalps as an anti-frustration measure. Doesn't matter if we are using totems or scalps if no sentient creatures show up to donate them too us.

[IndigoFenix]

One simple fix for the scalp system: just use totems.

My concern is less 'the scalp system is complicated' and more 'now that invaders are tracked, some forts will not get them for a looooooong time'. If it is at all possible under the new system, the Orcs should simply have some means of reliably provoking a siege or otherwise gaining scalps as an anti-frustration measure. Doesn't matter if we are using totems or scalps if no sentient creatures show up to donate them too us.

I was just referring to the minimalist direction of the new MWDF.  Giving all sapient creatures an extra butcher item seems a little pointless when 'one kill, one item' is kind of the whole point of totems to begin with.

[smakemupagus]

If you are thinking of nerfing the bone-metals, you might want to tinker with the Freelancer Prices as well. As of right now, the process of selling cloth and totems, buying steel swords, and melting them down seems easier than making actual bloodsteel to me. Perhaps not as efficient, but fewer steps are involved and less fuel is used. An interesting mechanic would be to make the Freelance and other trader stations more expensive to use when the siege tag is active.

This is a good point.  Anyway it's probably kind of an oversight that the Freelancers sell that steel blade.  Importing steel items is supposed to be very expensive - I think all the other examples in the caravanserai require platinum coin (I like to imagine that this implies that the Shadowbroker's people have to be involved somehow as a middleman, no merchant in their right mind would sell steel directly to an orc )

[vonsch]

Thanks for replies.  It's interesting, I get remarks about the training grounds being both over- and under-powered, so I guess that people use them differently.  But you have to commit to doing it on a pretty significant scale, like 4 or 6 benches, if you want to see real results.  They're hard to balance because there's nonlinear response -- once your skills are decent, you train faster and faster.  I don't want it to really replace other kinds of training, so maybe I err on the side of slightly underpowered.

Still, personally I get a lot of use out of the training 'shops for skills that are hard to train by sparring or live training ... that is, block, armor, dodge, kin sense, melee.  Like, getting some new recruits up to rank ~2 or 3 in skills so that they can spar without screwing up all the time, and without being sad about the draft.

@vonsch, your gladiator idea might or might not be possible, but I don't know how to do it.  i like DFHack stuff but am not too involved with development of it, so i try to stay away from it for things that have a decent workable solution with vanilla mechanics.

Understood on the gladiator idea. One of things that just occurred to me due to what was going on at the time.

On the training buildings, I think I have been using them backwards due to the way Meph uses the library in dwarf mode. I was thinking the training would be fastest at low skill, not high skill, and that's the way that I think it should work. The raw recruits should benefit most. It's just fine tuning for the legendaries. The skill differentials at that point are (or should be) minor.

One of their downsides is they take up a set amount of predesignated and shaped space. Sparring can happen almost anywhere if you're willing to accept some risk of accidents.

[smakemupagus]

My concern is less 'the scalp system is complicated' and more 'now that invaders are tracked, some forts will not get them for a looooooong time'. If it is at all possible under the new system, the Orcs should simply have some means of reliably provoking a siege or otherwise gaining scalps as an anti-frustration measure. Doesn't matter if we are using totems or scalps if no sentient creatures show up to donate them too us.

I don't believe that the provoke siege reaction works in 0.40 with the activated world armies.  Same reason I don't think the retaliation attacks will work; it's the same script.

[Isngrim]

might it be possible to redirect armies then?instead of spawning a new one change the destination of an already existing one.

[Baffler]

Could you instead use a spawn script to place invaders directly at the edge of the map? It'd be tedious to write and more predictable than actual armies, but it's better than nothing.

[Weirdsound]

A few comments about the fletcher:

You can cut any rock into gems now, so it seems kinda silly and redundant to have the Obsidian Arrows and the Gem Arrows options. Unless there is a significant difference in power between the two arrow types, I'd suggest either remove the Obsidian Arrows reaction, or making the Gem Arrows take uncut gems so that players can't just make them out of basalt or whatever.

Secondly, the hotkey combo to build the Fletchery will instead bring up the DFhack Hotkey list. Might want to use another combo to build the thing.

[vjmdhzgr]

My concern is less 'the scalp system is complicated' and more 'now that invaders are tracked, some forts will not get them for a looooooong time'. If it is at all possible under the new system, the Orcs should simply have some means of reliably provoking a siege or otherwise gaining scalps as an anti-frustration measure. Doesn't matter if we are using totems or scalps if no sentient creatures show up to donate them too us.

I don't believe that the provoke siege reaction works in 0.40 with the activated world armies.  Same reason I don't think the retaliation attacks will work; it's the same script.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=135597.480 About halfway down.