Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LuckyKobold]

Wait, Does this mean I'll be able to play a bard next release?

[Dirst]

It is really, really unlikely that booze will be promoted to full "fluid" status.  Currently there are two fluids, water and magma, which have all of their properties hardcoded.  This includes how they react with walls, floors, items, plants, creatures, and each other.  Adding a third fluid (crude oil?) would entail quite a bit of work.  Arbitrary fluids would involve the long-term development goal of defining chemistry.

That said, a tavern zone with keg stands and mugs would be great.  Beer cisterns for swimming training will just have to wait.

[Batgirl1]

It is really, really unlikely that booze will be promoted to full "fluid" status.  Currently there are two fluids, water and magma, which have all of their properties hardcoded.  This includes how they react with walls, floors, items, plants, creatures, and each other.  Adding a third fluid (crude oil?) would entail quite a bit of work.  Arbitrary fluids would involve the long-term development goal of defining chemistry.

That said, a tavern zone with keg stands and mugs would be great.  Beer cisterns for swimming training will just have to wait.

But couldn't Booze just inherit from water, albeit with different freeze/evaporate temperature properties?

[thedrelle]

I wish it were that easy.

as it stands, booze is an object in the game, it is handled in the same way as a stack of plump helmets, except it has a few property tags that keep it from being handled like a solid object by dwarves.

 where water  differs is that it is an actual part of the core code of the game. To include beer as a fluid, he would have to either rework fluids from the ground up,  or  hard code in a third liquid.

the first option would allow all kinds of fluids to be added to the game, similar to how say, fogs of blood work now, using raws to expand it. This could get messy and may seriously hinder the performance of fortresses, not to mention needing a massive amount of time creating the groundwork for such a thing.

the other option would take a lot of time, and would require carefully setting up new dynamics to the fluid handling in the game

[LordBaal]

I vote for the simple solution of having a construction/furniture "tab" that holds either multiple barrels or it's contents, in the first case it could hold several types of booze, on the second it would obviously hold only a single type, perhaps(preferably) chosen by you.

As for the mugs, the same artifact would optionally store X amount of mugs for dwarfs/visitors to drink. Then they could in theory go get some food, then a pint and sit down to eat/drink at the same time. This could reduce break times to eat/drink a lot. More so if dwarven are made to rather drink from a mug and a tab than directly from a barrel unless very thirsty or have no other option.

Personally I find something like that double useful as would work to stop those idiots pillaging the booze stockpiles on your cells and as punishment for those chained in said cells by forcing them to drink from a barrel, not to mention forcing everyone to actually go to your magnificent dinning room, that you spent 3 years carving from the stone itself, instead of running like headless chickens to the prison cells to drink there (despite the prison being as far as hell) without having to fiddle with the bothersome burrows.

Further on the subject of the mugs, they could either carry the mug with themselves all the time or fetch it from their bins/bags each time they are going to eat (would rather the first option, although the second sounds more "real like"). The mugs stored on the tab would be used by migrants/visitors only or something along those lines. But honestly this does sounds like a tad too much, and I think it would be just fine to use any mug lying around as long they actually sit down to eat/drink at the same time.

[FallenAngel]

With the mugs part, here's my two cents:

Dwarves do not get a bad thought from drinking straight from a barrel. However, they get a good thought from drinking from a mug.
I'd think that it'd be a slight boost if the mug had no quality, just mentioning drinking out of a mug. Good thought strength would increase with mug quality and drink quality. Mugs could also be assigned to specific places/people/job titles. This way, your king could be given that artifact koala bone mug someone made seven years ago and the peasants would be forced to drink from barrels.
Nobles of significant importance would be angered/upset by people "less" than them being allowed to use better mugs than them; they won't care if someone uses a better mug once, in case you reserve mugs for nobles but nobody else. They also could get good thoughts from drinking out of a mug made of a material they like, and bad thoughts from drinking out of a mug made of the bones of an animal they like.
"Was happy to drink out of a mug of preferred material lately" and "Was horrified to drink out of a mug of preferred animal lately" or something to those effects.
Obviously, dwarves would prefer mugs made of a preferred material, and stray away from ones made of their preferred animal.

[Aslandus]

Can you make bone mugs? I know you can make waterskins from leather, but I don't think drinking from skulls has been implemented yet...

[FallenAngel]

Well, it could be related to decorations, if bone mugs don't exist.
Be careful when decorating yours mugs!

[Dirst]

I wish it were that easy.

as it stands, booze is an object in the game, it is handled in the same way as a stack of plump helmets, except it has a few property tags that keep it from being handled like a solid object by dwarves.

 where water  differs is that it is an actual part of the core code of the game. To include beer as a fluid, he would have to either rework fluids from the ground up,  or  hard code in a third liquid.

the first option would allow all kinds of fluids to be added to the game, similar to how say, fogs of blood work now, using raws to expand it. This could get messy and may seriously hinder the performance of fortresses, not to mention needing a massive amount of time creating the groundwork for such a thing.

the other option would take a lot of time, and would require carefully setting up new dynamics to the fluid handling in the game

Found the quote.

Rainseeker:   So let's address chemistry. This kind of overlaps I guess, I'm just going to jump into something I was wondering about; will we ever find oil in the mountains or in the plains?
Toady:   Or under the deserts, and wherever else you find it!
Capntastic:   Under the sea.
Toady:   Yeah. (singing) Under the sea. (end singing) With the mermaids ... because there are already industries based around mermaids, so why not oil?
Rainseeker:   Floating fortresses over oil patches.
Toady:   Yeah, frozen methane under the ocean floor, all that kind of thing. I think it would be really cool ... we talked about liquid types before and the problems, but now let's talk about some fun things and just assume that you can overcome some of the issues there. It would be cool to have whole ... you know how you have the raw files with the different types of stone ... it would be cool if you could just be like 'well this one's actually a liquid' or whatever, and so there'd be an oil layer, like a big oil sea ... I don't know that much about it but I assume there's quite a lot of oil down there if you're pumping a hundred and fifty million barrels or whatever, and so you should actually be able to go down there and occasionally bump into whole seas of oil.
Rainseeker:   That'd be a problem.
Capntastic:   Pressurised.
Toady:   Yeah, you'd have your dwarf shoot up on a geyser, it'd be really cool; like shoot up in the air and then catch them on fire or whatever. But then actually using ... historically I imagine that petroleum or oil or whatever isn't just a modern thing; people at least poured it on people and set it on fire of course, so you'd be able to do things like that assuming there was a way to say that any liquid you've got - right now we've got water and magma, but say you'd get one of these mineral liquids that you'd define as a mineral layer or whatever - to be able to set up an activity zone or a workshop at that location and then put it into barrels or something. Then once you have barrels of it whatever custom reactions you've got designed for it in the workshop, whether that's in vanilla or modded Dwarf Fortress, you can do things with it and if there is something that sets on fire and you can pour on people you'd need a way to be able to do that. And whatever else you can use oil for would all be fair game at that point. I think it would be really cool. You have to jump over the largest hurdle there which is just getting a liquid on the map that isn't water, that can act like water. It opens up other things too, like there's tar, above ground, having tar pits ...
Rainseeker:   That'd be awesome.
Today:   Yeah, tar pits are a lot of fun. Even a more liquid version of mud that you can kind of sink and fall into ... but we're going back to the physics discussion instead of forward into the chemistry discussion, so ...
Rainseeker:   We also have acids of course; what are you plans for acids?
Toady:   I'm of two minds on this. I've got my Arab/Persian chemistry from around the year 800 or something like that, the kind of stuff I've been looking at when people were isolating sulphuric acid and making aqua regia and all these kind of ... chemistry ... glass flasks, spun and turned around for distilling things that you see in crazy mad scientist movies and stuff. All that stuff existed long before my arbitrary 1400's cut off and it would be really cool to be able to do all kinds of things with that. Of course those acids are not like fantasy acids; if you used aqua regia to etch gold instead of making someone melt into a little puddle then that would be cool, just to use it for things that it might actually have been used for. And there's things like acetic acid and citric acid and so on; there were all kinds of things that were isolated and had myriad uses, and I think it would be just great to have all that stuff go in. At the same time you can't have fantasy world generators without fantasy acid. Fantasy acid is like some kind of monster - a dragon or whatever - spits some crap on you and you just go away. However the game models that, if it's just 'yeah this does really bad things to people', if it's like a poison that way like how I've got them currently set up, or whether it just says 'this has the melting acid effect' on all kinds of stuff ... however it works it would be way more powerful than anything that you'd be able to make with your chemists shop, but then you can start working things like dragon scales and things in there and it starts to blur the lines between chemistry, alchemy and flat out witches cauldron style stuff.
Capntastic:   That's how it should be though.
Toady:   Yeah, I'm not saying that's bad at all; those are the things I want, it's just a matter of getting that stuff started. For real chemistry I think having all of that out in the raws, trying to hardcode nothing, just list out as many chemical reactions as you can think to do ... There's a few problems here and there; like if you define zillions of chemical reactions that give you all kinds of different chemicals and they have different uses and you just slowly add to that list more and more, you don't want to get to the point where any time you drop an item on the ground it has to chug away, checking to make sure ... it's like 'well these two things just touched each other; the sword blade just touched the ground, and now we have to check a list of twenty thousand reactions to see if in fact the ground is going to explode'. There are just things that you have to be conscious of when you start defining those things; one of the reasons we have contact poisons not quite on hold, but they only work through splatters and contaminants now is because there are all kinds of things touching each other all the time and you don't want to bog yourself down, like when a dwarf is walking on the ground do you have to take the boots he's wearing versus the type of the soil and make sure that there isn't some explosive catastrophic reaction or that the boots don't turn into gold or something, because of some reaction; and is the reaction exothermic and his feet catch on fire, or do they freeze ... It's the kind of thing where you could find it getting out of control. However, those problems are all surmountable, just looking things up a little more intelligently than doing it by brute force, and then you can have a very lively world where things can get splattered on you and splattered on other things and mixed together and so on, and turn into other things. We have temperatures for all the objects so if you did have a reaction that just heated things up, you pour one liquid into another liquid and it turns into other stuff but it's also very very hot, you could do that, and you could do that to do harmful things to your goblin friends and stuff. It really does have a lot of potential and just having those things in the raws ... There's a reason that the jobs in the raws are called reactions; it was originally going to be for the alchemy system for the alchemists workshop that doesn't even do anything - except for soap or whatever it does now - it's because I want to have reactions where it understands what materials ... I'll have to change the format of them a little bit, but it understands how materials react with each other and what the outcome of that process is. There's a lot that won't be done just because the real world is so rich with this kind of stuff, but we can do a lot, and we can do it eventually to the point where some people are satisfied.

* Dirst removes his Footkerchief costume *