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[angelious]

A meme about certain monsters that they're introducing now would've cost more than the entire Charlemange DLC for Atilla.

@angelious, sure, but in that case it's a bit shit that it took them this long to rectify that.

I will say tho, there is some enjoyment in the constant tension of barely scraping trough every single turn and having to figure out and pick your battles as opposed to just roflstomping everything with your LL and his posse of shieldmaidens :V

I do feel that will not last forever tho and that it'll get frustrating relatively quick.

fair,but they did have a lot on their plate i suppose. a lot of the dlc factions were disliked, and a lot of the original factions needed reworks too.

dwarves still need a rework imo. and some people are claiming vampire counts are lagging behind as well..but idk about that.

[nenjin]

Old Beastmen DLC really is like playing an actual minor faction in ME. You're so small and so slow to grow compared to every other faction that just figuring out how to survive is a game unto itself. You spend your time annoying other factions (much like Beastmen actually would) trying to raid and raze enough to grow while also trying to not piss of enough factions at once that they start trying to close the net around you.

I remember in one game I made my way through the Badlands and pissed off Grimgor but kinda left them behind as I made it into the Northern mountains. Then dozens of turns later Orks just started appearing, multiple armies, giving chase across the entirety of Sylvania, the Empire....it was nuts. They almost ran to me Altdorf before they eventually gave up.

Playing old Beefmen is like being a homeless Jason Bourne in ME. You're constantly on the move, surrounded by people that want to kill you and hiding in plain sight often while enemies circle around you; like pulling into an alleyway and turning off the lights during a car chase.

It sucked but I won't lie, I might miss it just a little bit. You really feel like you accomplished something in old Beefmen when you managed to wipe out a major faction with just two garbage armies.

[Mech#4]

The A.I. can be very relentless. Playing as the Warriors of Chaos sometimes ends with a train of Order faction armies trailing behind you across the map.

I think the Vampire Counts A.I. mostly just needs a bit of a wake up. They used to take over large parts of the Empire but were calmed down a while ago. Making them a bit more aggressive again would help. Though I think there's also issues with their mostly chaff armies being outclassed by Empire and Dwarfen units nearby.

[Persus13]

I believe the quote  that started off the meme said that animating a Jabberslythe would've cost the same as the entire art budget for the Charlemagne DLC. It even got referenced in the promos for this DLC

Jabberslythe (Monster) – a powerful, horrifying fusion of toad, sludge-drake, and insect. Area of effect attacks, debuffs, and worth as much as a Charlemagne.

Beastman was the first ever new faction DLC they released for Warhammer, so they definitely have learned a lot since then.

At least in my games the Vampire Counts generally give the Empire a good fight for the Old World. It also felt like they got a lot of love over the course of both games, so not getting any attention recently hasn't hurt them much imo.

[angelious]

vc tends to get curbstomped in my games. usually being one of the first factions to die alongside beastmen.


also i loved the ambush mechanics with beastmen...the map layout was fun, and i never got bored of ambushing imperial armies and just watching my herd run out of the forest and into their unprotected flank.

it was cinematic in a way...

[LordPorkins]

vc tends to get curbstomped in my games. usually being one of the first factions to die alongside beastmen.

Yeah. I've noticed that the AI Empire factions (quite smartly) will rush and build up Outriders early game. The AI doesn't use skirmishers super well, but they are even worse at countering it. Outriders crush AI counts early game.

[Jopax]

So Malagor is kinda stupid now :V

Even early game, he's capable of making the t1 shitty spell Flock of Doom into a monster of a siege spell, my most recent siege was of Karak Eight Peaks, some 3500 orks versus my 1700 beasty boys, tho, most of those were irrelevant as Malagor, on his own managed to do some 120k damage and kill around 1200 orks. It took a while, but boy when that grinder starts going, it really goes to town.

Plus, I'm not sure if there's a targeting bug going on or there was some weird unit placement fuckery going on, but multiple times the spell went off on units that were clearly outside of the AoE that I placed down.

And this is before I've gotten the bastard leveled up enough to grab some of the really broken stuff that makes his spells even cheaper.


That said, I fear he might have the opposite problem from before, that he's so stupid strong it makes the campaign a touch too easy and boring. This might just be because orks aren't exactly the strongest counters to beastmen and folks like the Empire or HE might prove more difficult, so we'll see.

[nenjin]

Yeah I didn't mention that but I think they buffed him too much. A flying unit with an AoE spell right out of the box is insanely powerful.

Watching LotW, he just used all stalking units and let Malagor vaporize everything. It kinda sucked the fun out of it IMO. He was like "Yeah, now you're encouraged to use all the units and build whatever army you want!!!111"

50 turns later he has the same units he started the game with because "I don't need them, I have Malagor."

[Persus13]

Sounds like its a good thing I'm a terrible player that just made a normal army comp and have been playing like I normally would with Malagor then.

[nenjin]

If you know the ways of the cheese, Malagor may be one of the best Legendary Lords in the game now. His only real weakness is that he's a shit fighter and doesn't do well against single and large entities. So I suppose if you're going up against an army with a lot of flying units that can attack Malagor, or lots of single entities, he's not great. But in pretty much all other circumstances he's unstoppable. Even an army with a shitload of ranged can't really hurt him because he's so fast and so small that he can just dodge most missiles, and use the Herdstone abilities to delete the enemy army ammunition. Add in some missile resistance and he can laugh off an entire army of ranged attackers.

And since there are literally no downsides to giving Beastmen the Sword of Khaine, if you drop that on him he is basically unkillable at that point AND gets more AoE to mop up battles faster.

Like, I'm glad he's stronger. But it seems like too much. Simply not giving him Winds of Magic cost reductions so Flock of Doom isn't basically infinitely castable would be a good first step.

Heh, I'm watching a LotW one man Doomstack video featuring Malagor right now, and he's just pimp slapping Black Dragons out of the air.

Disgustin'!

[angelious]

If you know the ways of the cheese, Malagor may be one of the best Legendary Lords in the game now. His only real weakness is that he's a shit fighter and doesn't do well against single and large entities. So I suppose if you're going up against an army with a lot of flying units that can attack Malagor, or lots of single entities, he's not great. But in pretty much all other circumstances he's unstoppable. Even an army with a shitload of ranged can't really hurt him because he's so fast and so small that he can just dodge most missiles, and use the Herdstone abilities to delete the enemy army ammunition. Add in some missile resistance and he can laugh off an entire army of ranged attackers.

And since there are literally no downsides to giving Beastmen the Sword of Khaine, if you drop that on him he is basically unkillable at that point AND gets more AoE to mop up battles faster.

Like, I'm glad he's stronger. But it seems like too much. Simply not giving him Winds of Magic cost reductions so Flock of Doom isn't basically infinitely castable would be a good first step.

Heh, I'm watching a LotW one man Doomstack video featuring Malagor right now, and he's just pimp slapping Black Dragons out of the air.

Disgustin'!

casters are always op and capable of soloing armies.

but idk if i would call malagor the best lord.  you also need to look at the campaign and unit buffs he gives, outside of his own killing power.

alariel, ikit, and vc lords are the ones i usually see when people talk about "the best lords in the game"

since they have the same op spell casting that malagor has, but they also bring in loads of buffs to their units, alongside with getting good single targetting spells and decent survivability and shit.

[nenjin]

Except Malagor doesn't even need other units to win 90% of battles. Without the sword of Khaine, without Ward Save coming out his eyeballs. And one of his faction buffs reduces spellcasting costs for all wizards in the faction.

Considering you have to level most Lords to 10+ before they can even get a mount, which is required if you want your caster to live through the battle while dishing out spells constantly, that puts Malagor significantly ahead of most other legendary lords. And he kinda only just gets better as you round out his skills at what he already does: fling tons of magic, and be untouchable by 90% of damage.

[umiman]

It's only broken if you choose to play that way in SP. It's an SP game, it's up to you how OP you want to make yourself. You could do doomstacks of mammoths or those OP elven archer sisters. You could download cheats and be invincible. You could play Taurox or Ikit Claw.

In MP people already spec to deal with flying unit nonsense anyway. It wouldn't be a concern as a single net or some other flying units would wipe Malagor off the map.

[Jopax]

Sure, I guess? Some semblance of balance still needs to be present if you want any sort of longevity, even if it is singleplayer only, saying just don't use him is a bit silly since he's the bloody faction leader, not playing him the way he's been designed to be played is gimping yourself intentionally because the devs were too lazy to balance things properly. The old Beastmen were too weak, and I get wanting to buff them but I think they overshot a touch.

Because it's not just Malagor, tho he's the most glaring example, any bray shaman with the beast lore can do almost as much horrible things to any infantry heavy army. I'm not sure if traitor-kin was this stupid before but it's essentially a flock of doom except better.
No idea if you can view the actual numbers for both skills anywhere, but from what I've seen in combat, flock of doom has a high chance of affecting the target but it deals fairly low damage over a short period of time, so you generally need at least 3 casts on a healthy unit to see any models going down, even if the entire unit is stuck at a third of their max hp. Traitor-kin on the other hand seems to do stupid high damage but has a lower chance of actually hitting, I've seen it start racking up kills on the first cast, and this was fairly significant numbers of dead units, only to see it fall off as their numbers got reduced.

And as nenjin pointed out above, it's not just that he's bonkers strong, the big part of the issue is that unlike cheese and doomstacks other races get, Malagor gets to roll over shit after a few turns only since you only really need to upgrade flock of doom itself and then rush the first cost reduction skill.

[nenjin]

I will revise my opinion a little. Playing on a normal campaign rn and I went up against a beefy dwarf army on turn 30. Had to quit the battle because all the organ guns and dwarf gunners lit me up. But I’m probably not doing missile dodging correctly. So he’s not invincible. But it’s the first fight I’ve had yet where it wasn’t just an automatic win. But I think Malagor is like, level 12 and only has 20% missile resist, and it’s a fairly beefy dwarf army.

Prior to the update, Traitor Kin was basically worthless. The damage was completely aenemic. Now, while it’s not Wind of Death or Burning Skull, it will destroy any single infantry unit in a couple casts. Get enough Winds together, enough cast cost reduction and a few Bray Shaman, and it is quite effective for not having to be aimed and not running a foul of movement.