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[IndigoFenix]

I apologize in advance for trying to mess with everyone's different projects.  'Tis my nature to try and shape and unify things.

Despite the modular vision of the new Masterwork, a lot of the different races share each others' technologies in some way or another, whether by default or through tech-stealing reactions.  However, some of these systems are inconsistent, particularly among the races created by different people (that is, the orcs, succubi, and gnomes).  For instance, orc chemistry and dwarf chemistry work in different ways, gnome tinkering uses different parts than dwarf tinkering, and the systems for warlocks and succubi for soul extraction are different.  I thought it would be a good idea to try and organize everything into some organized table describing the different technologies, so we can unify them better and better streamline the mod as a whole.

For technology shared between races, perhaps a single workshop could be shared.  Alternatively, if the tone of the races are very different, the same reaction could run from different workshops.  Anyway, this topic is to discuss the details.

Races that steal or buy plans for other race's workshops can be tricky.  One possibility is for each stealable workshop to have a copy that requires a blueprint, and make all associated reactions run from either version.  The other possibility (which is neater) is to have the workshop always require a particular item that only that race can produce, and have the item be stolen instead.  (If all else fails, a blueprint will suffice).

Note that I am including Goblins and Elves in this chart, despite the fact that they haven't been made yet.

General outline/brainstorming:

Basic workshops (Stone/Wood/Bone/Gem-Crafter, Furniture Shop, Tailor Shop) - Shared by everyone

Advanced Metalworking (Crucible, Blast Furnace, Metallurgist, Finishing Forge, Weaponry, Armory, Metal Siegeworks) - Dwarves, Humans, maybe Orcs (with blacksmoke versions)
Lesser Supernatural Forges (Stoneforge, Gemforge, Glassforge) - Dwarves, Succubi (hellfire put to utilitarian use?)
Rune Weapons/Armor - Dwarves, Orcs?
Chemistry and Gunpowder - Dwarves, Humans, Goblins
Guns - Dwarves, Humans, Gnomes (after purchasing gunpowder)
High-Power Explosives (Mines) - Dwarves, Goblins
'Sneaky' traps - Kobolds, Goblins
Tinkering, advanced machinery - Gnomes only
Turrets, turret armor, and other gun-utilizing machines - Requires gunpowder and tinkering-based machines combined, trade for the missing component
Libraries and Scriptorium - Dwarves, Warlocks
Animal communion - Gnomes, Elves
Soul Extraction - Succubi, Warlocks
Fleshcrafting - Succubi, Warlocks
Arcane Magic - Humans, Warlocks
Shamanic Magic - Orcs, Kobolds
Weather Magic - Elves, Kobolds
Blood-focused Religious Magic - Orcs, Dwarves
Pantheon-based Religious Magic - Humans only
Advanced Fletchery - Orcs, Elves
Efficient Animal Material Use - Kobolds, Orcs
Ironbone/Bloodsteel - Orcs, Warlocks
Animal Armoring - Dwarves, Humans, Gnomes
Raids - Orcs, Warlocks

[smakemupagus]

Well.  I applaud what you're doing, in terms of especially the detail oriented things like how to standardize chemistry, I could be on board with some of that.  Note though that the reason the orcs use marble blueprints for all their barbarian tech stuff is a fairly important gameplay optimization -- a player can make a marble tools stockpile and know what they've unlocked at a glance or look for the keyword "blueprint" in stocks list.

In principle we could go around on some of the details.  Some things I wouldn't necessarily mind parting with, like rune weapons or treesinging, but note that I would almost certainly replace them with some other stolen tech, so we might get stuck in a loop   Other things i just don't really agree -- I just can't imagine Orcs living in a world where gunpowder weapons are widespread among humans, and not coming up with their own crude version, buying them from pirates or the black market, kidnapping craftsmen, etc.  There is also the overall gameplay arc in which orcs start out with big chopping weapons but have to "tech up" or get foreign weapons to add good stabbing, piercing and blunt damage.   The different options for gun-type weapons are tuned to be one way to play into that, and also because I think it adds greatly to replay if you have different alternative stuff you can do with different types of resources. 

Orc Fortress was always intended to be kind of a standalone mod that happens to be in the MDF universe, not 1/10th of a mod about a lot of races.  I've been having the "orcs shouldn't have artisans/technology/guns/money/magic/whatever" debate with other players since well before there were any other races in MDF, but I was stubborn then too I have my own design in mind that I've spent a long (too much?) time thinking about, all the lore or whatever is consistent enough in my head, and I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours playing and tweaking, and implementing feedback from other regular players.  It seems to me that as it has become polished and is essentially complete, there are some number of other players who also see it the way I do and like the overall design.  I'm really not looking to do a major reengineering of the whole project.

Some things are staying whether or not they're perfect lore-wise just because I spent a lot of time developing them and think they're fun.  At the end of the day -- I mean you all are great and all that -- but the mod is really for my wife, and she doesn't care whether or not some newfangled humans *also* now have merchants; she's never played Humans and probably never will. (Caravanserai was one of the first major unique features of Orc mode, quite a while before there were Humans, and they are designed in part to remove useless clutter from Mrs. Smak's forts to supposedly help her frame rate.  They aren't going anywhere.)

Perhaps, the way I do this mod is not the best for the tens of thousands of players who play MDF, who mostly play dwarf mode and the other races are just there for them to take a break and have a special fort once in a while that's different.  Rather, I am designing for people who might want to play orc mode many times and want to have a number of new things to experiment and discover each time.  If we really are far apart on the design philosophy, maybe it means the Taiga orcs aren't a core race in the new MDF, it's OK, and we can talk details if it gets to that point.  You all would be welcome to pick and choose and use what you want, but I don't have the time or inclination any more to do a really big overhaul or maintain two different versions.  Maybe someone could implement a toggle button or something that turns off all the stuff you don't think is suitable for the big picture.  Or you could just stick with goblins.  /shrug  We'll figure it out.

[IndigoFenix]

This suggestion was meant to be less focused on removing features, and more about connecting shared technology together and fixing up inconsistencies between the way the different races function.  Although I do think it would be nice to increase trade dependency between races by restricting certain technologies without trading for particular components, especially among the 'good guy' races.

We'll have to wait and see what happens with the goblins, but maybe orcs could buy gunpowder from them, just as gnomes (and possibly humans) would buy it from dwarves.  The endgame opportunities would remain unchanged, only the means of getting them would be affected.  For some reason (probably Warcraft-related) I find it more plausible to imagine a shaman orc treesinging than a scientist orc poring over chemicals in a laboratory.  You've kind of given them this whole tribal-nature-spiritual vibe (in the manual at least), which opens up the opportunity of having them share some technology with the elves, once that system is set up.

The buying prisoners idea you have fits orcs just fine, although it seems that it might benefit from an integration with the Warlocks' captive system, which uses actual prisoner units instead of items.  Maybe check that out a bit, perhaps new scripts could be added to better suit the way orcs treat their prisoners.  (Also, I think drow are being removed from the MW verse.  Maybe replace them with gnomes, to produce the WH40K-inspired upgrades.)

I don't really like the marketplace-workshop system in general (it's one thing for a game to have magically replenishing, static marketplaces, but when actual item-carrying caravans traveling to and from the homeland are already in the game... it just seems a little out-of-place), but that applies to any race that has them, so meh.  (Now if it were intended to be some kind of magical gate, that would be different...)

[smakemupagus]

This suggestion was meant to be less focused on removing features, and more about connecting shared technology together and fixing up inconsistencies between the way the different races function.  Although I do think it would be nice to increase trade dependency between races by restricting certain technologies without trading for particular components, especially among the 'good guy' races.

Indeed, a number of the techs that that the Orcs now unlock in other ways, were originally designed to only be available by trading with other slaver races that don't exist any more.  It was a neat feature.  Of course some of those techs are the ones that feel most out of place now, but I am still somewhat attached to them.  In my mind the Ashland Elves and the Chaos Legion are still out there raising hell somewhere

The tribal embark is just what the Orcs have been reduced via constant persecution by the 'Civilized' People.  Especially on the old Embark profiles page, which is kind of hidden in the manual now, you can get some idea for other aspects of the lorewise Old Kingdoms.

Spoiler: Thunderguard embark (click to show/hide)

Your clan traces its lineage back to the Orcish Sorcerer-kings of the deep. When you were young, your great-uncle would unlock the old stockpiles to show you the mechanized crossbows, the automata, the black powder and strange runic weapons. But your uncle was no sorcerer, nor even a mechanist, and the ancient weapons were rusted and decrepit after long decades of neglect. In any case the stockpiles were lost to the Drow years ago in the Underdark wars. Your clan is now diminished almost to a feral pack of animals, scavenging for scraps in the moonlight, hiding in caves from Human outriders from dawn to dusk. You agree with your cousin, the chief, on a desperate mission: you will take a small team of picked Orcs, build a secret holding deep below the hills, and rebuild a devastating arsenal in relative safety. Only once you have the strength to finally break your enemies will you reveal yourself to the surface world again.

Goals: Embark with the "Mountain Clan" profile in a region without Human Bandit trade partners. Delve directly to the 1st or 2nd cavern; anything built above the 1st cavern must be made of Factory-produced blocks, metal, or obsidian. Equip at least 20 soldiers with gunpowder weapons including at least 5 Seawolf or Lifeguard Society arms kits. Ultimately build an citadel and obelisk on the surface as a beacon for your scattered clan.

Tips: Buy ammo at the Freelancers' Guild or craft it at the Goblin Tinkerer. Gunpowder weapons are available at the Freelancer or Tinkerer; by raiding Humans and Merchants Guild, or by loot in ordinary combat.

Bonus 1: Build an Altar of Storms and train 2 or more Sorcerers to support the Thunderguard.
Bonus 2: Capture a Heavy Weapons Armory and destroy at least 10 enemies with cannons' Grenade ammo or steam-powered melee weapons.

The buying prisoners idea you have fits orcs just fine, although it seems that it might benefit from an integration with the Warlocks' captive system, which uses actual prisoner units instead of items.  This is the age of DFHack, when anything is possible (given enough scripting skill)!  Maybe check that out a bit, perhaps new scripts could be added to better suit the way orcs treat their prisoners.  (Also, I think drow are being removed from the MW verse.  Maybe replace them with gnomes, to produce the WH40K-inspired upgrades.)

Yes, I really should learn more about the DFHack prisoner stuff someday.  More than learning how the scripts work, I'm afraid the gameplay balance changes a lot if you can just capture any old elf in a cage, it'd be a lot easier to get labor cells running I think.  Maybe it'd be a good thing though once all the kinks are worked out.

In fact there is a recently added gnomish raid / labor cell and that's exactly what he does (makes it much easier to make the "40k" type stuff - previously you had to loot automatons, but I haven't seen those guys around for a long time).  By the way, those bobcat riding gnomes with screwdrivers are surprisingly decent adversaries if you underestimate them badly enough

[IndigoFenix]

The problem of being able to use any old invader/merchant in a cage could be solved easily by making the script require the worker to be a pet.  Maybe there could even be a (costly) method of 'taming' caged invaders, as an alternative to using the shadowbroker.

Consider this possibility: Orcs can build certain workshops that are used by other races (so that if the other races take over an orc site they can use them), but can't run their reactions by default; instead they have special 'slave driver' reactions, called something like LUA_HOOK_SLAVEDRIVER_WHATEVER.  This reaction uses no reagent (or perhaps something like a whip or food), and produces a material defined by the required slave's species (like elf tears), with zero percent possibility of actual production.  The script then runs a search through the raws for a reaction with the identical name but with SLAVEDRIVER changed to SLAVEDRIVEN (LUA_HOOK_SLAVEDRIVEN_WHATEVER), then looks for a tame member of the required species pastured in (or near) the workshop.  (Well, actually the script would probably store all the reaction connections in a table on startup, to reduce the slowdown from searching the raws every time, but same principle.)  If it finds one, it assigns the SLAVEDRIVEN job to the slave, who will then attempt to carry it out.

From a gameplay standpoint, you'd pasture a tame slave on the workshop, then run the slavedriver reaction.  An orc would run the slavedriver reaction, and the slave would carry out the job.  Production speed would be slower than running the reaction directly, but that seems reasonable.  (I guess you'd also need the reagent stockpiles to be in the slave's pasture, or alternatively the slavedriver reaction could automatically bring them to the workshop.)

ANYWAY, this is getting off topic.

When working out the way production should actually work, whether in the form of chemistry, tinkering, or magic, there are basically five things to keep in mind:

1. Micromanagement isn't fun, so fewer manually-assigned steps is better.
2. Searching long menus isn't fun, so fewer items and materials is better.
3. High-end products should be difficult to make.
4. A reasonable degree of scientific accuracy should be maintained.
5. All races should use the same processes and materials, unless there is a reason for them not to.

Concerning chemistry, I think it would be best for standard solid chemical reagents to be classified as bars rather than tools.  It seems weird for things like gunpowder and rust, but since DF classifies things like ash and coke as bars, it fits with established DF rules.  More importantly, it will allow worldgen to track the production of these materials and allow them to be brought in caravans, without need for the crate-based workaround we have now.  (Crates should still be in, but only for finished products that are complicated to make or batch purchases.)

I also think it would be a good idea for the 'civilized' races to have a trade-based system, in which certain advanced products can only be produced by acquiring a reagent from another race.  This would create an interesting contrast between them and kobolds (who steal technology) and orcs (who use slaves to perform foreign-race tasks).

What I'm thinking is this:
Dwarves produce gunpowder
Gnomes produce machine parts
Elves produce nature magic
Humans produce arcane magic

Each of these races would have two main 'allies' who they benefit most by combining their technology with, and one 'opponent' who they don't get as much benefit from.  (Their ethics can also reflect these relationships).  To be fair, this part is mostly between myself and Meph (and whoever winds up doing elves).

Dwarves <-> Humans <-> Elves <-> Gnomes <-> Dwarves

Dwarves and Humans can combine to produce more advanced fiery magic and magic equipment
Humans and Elves can combine to create more flexible nature-related magic techniques
Elves and Gnomes can combine to create more advanced animal communion magic
Gnomes and Dwarves can combine to produce turrets and super-advanced weaponry

Just some brainstorming here, I should really organize these ideas better.

[Boltgun]

Ideally we can keep a document up to date listing buildings and feature of the races, to avoid reinventing the wheel, and at the same time declare what can be stolen. That way each of us decide what we want to provide.

If a building can be built using stolen tech, we can use a tool item in its construction or in reactions. This has the advantage to allow traders to bring this tool for allies to buy. But it would be better have such tech as a building upgrade instead of an entry to the workshop list that might not be used because of declared war, even if it's unlikely.

However I don't believe that we should force alliances for the sake of it. World gen should take care of it and some races are more reclusive than others.

[IndigoFenix]

Ideally we can keep a document up to date listing buildings and feature of the races, to avoid reinventing the wheel, and at the same time declare what can be stolen. That way each of us decide what we want to provide.

If a building can be built using stolen tech, we can use a tool item in its construction or in reactions. This has the advantage to allow traders to bring this tool for allies to buy. But it would be better have such tech as a building upgrade instead of an entry to the workshop list that might not be used because of declared war, even if it's unlikely.

However I don't believe that we should force alliances for the sake of it. World gen should take care of it and some races are more reclusive than others.

Ah, yes - using building upgrades would be very helpful for this sort of thing.

I didn't mean to force actual alliances, it's just a word I was using to describe a relationship between two races that can have the most benefit by trading with each other, on account of having some things in common while also being specialized in some way.  Dwarves and Humans both like battle, Humans and Elves both like magic, Elves and Gnomes both like nature, and Gnomes and Dwarves both like industry - but they all specialize in these areas in some way that the other does not, and can therefore be expected to benefit from trade.  It's just an interesting relationship that could be used to guide ideas for the potential technology/magic that each one would be most likely to acquire from the others.

[lcy03406]

Maybe a player should not reply in this thread but I'm so glad to see both of you are willing to deal these issues.

I want to point out a tiny aspect.

In military screen it's very confusing to have "claws" and "pairs of claws", and even worse, "vibroblade" and "vibroblades". After searching the raw I know "claws" is gnomish (mechanical) claws and "pairs of claws" is orcish. "vibroblade" is orcish though I don't know whether the plural is mistaken or intended but it does distinguish them from gnomish (clockwork) vibroblades because military screen doesn't show adjectives.

Maybe the two kinds of claws are basically the same thing, so it's better to have only one kind but gnomes and orcs make it in different ways. Vibroblades in the other hand are totally different. They should be named "orcish vibroblades" and "gnomish vibroblades", or "great vibroblades" and "clockwork vibroblades" ("clockwork" in the name, not adjective). Anyway it's up to you and my point is make the same thing the same, the different things distinguishable.

[IndigoFenix]

Ah,  yes,  that's the kind of thing that needs to be fixed.  Although it brings up a notable problem on its own, namely that orc vibroblades are much bigger (and ought to be).  I guess gnomes can make vibroknives instead.  Maybe orc can be vibroswords to make it clear that they are bigger.  They should be built using similar technology though.

[Boltgun]

On purely technical matters, it should be noted that the new dfhack also support an init.d folder per save.

https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/blob/master/Lua%20API.rst#save-init-script

So we do not have to maintain a common init.lua with the associated conflicts.

[smakemupagus]

Ah,  yes,  that's the kind of thing that needs to be fixed.  Although it brings up a notable problem on its own, namely that orc vibroblades are much bigger (and ought to be).  I guess gnomes can make vibroknives instead.  Maybe orc can be vibroswords to make it clear that they are bigger.  They should be built using similar technology though.

I don't mind renaming/adjusting that one on the orc side. 

.... Maybe I'll just either remove it or make it a chainsword anyway -- the chainaxe and steamhammer have sort of satisfyingly unique kinetic effects, but the orcish vibroblade at the moment is just another sword.  As a chainsword it could have the same nice rippy action as the chainaxe, maybe different attack/prepare/recover timings.

[Meph]

I agree on keeping the item kind a bit lower this time.

I'm not sure about sharing indutries/workshops. On the one hand its positive, making it easier for players to understand multiple races. On the other hand its harder on the modders, because the way dwarves do alchemy might be over/underpowered for other players, or some orcish industry gets changed, making the entry in the succubi manual, which use the same workshop, outdated.

I often changed stuff that I assumed was only used in Dwarf mode, just to later realize I broke something in Orc mode, because they were using the same reactions.

But if we take a basic workshop and copy the reactions 8 times and call them REACTION:DWARF_x, REACTION:GNOME_x etc, we quickly inflate the amount of raws, adding unnecessary bulk.

[Boltgun]

With only the building duplicated it's not really a problem. You only have to add the entry in the reaction.

We should simply avoid making duplicate reactions to introduce one variation of the same thing, it's very confusing when switching from one race to another.

[IndigoFenix]

I'm not sure about sharing indutries/workshops. On the one hand its positive, making it easier for players to understand multiple races. On the other hand its harder on the modders, because the way dwarves do alchemy might be over/underpowered for other players, or some orcish industry gets changed, making the entry in the succubi manual, which use the same workshop, outdated.

Hmm, that's a good point.  If there were ever a point where Masterwork could be considered 'complete' that would be one thing, but since we keep changing stuff around, breaking things is a valid issue.

At the very least, though, the basic technologies (chemistry, tinkering, the basic laws of magic, soul extraction) should remain constant across races.  They can expand outward for the more advanced and race-specific applications of those technologies.

Some of this issue could be avoided if we do go about separating the techs available to different races, though.  If only dwarves can make gunpowder and the other races have to buy (or steal) it from them, the process used to make it can remain part of a single mode, and we don't have to worry about it breaking the other modes.  Same goes for gnomes and mechanisms (sort of a rehash of an older version of Masterwork, where mechanisms were mainly obtained from automatons).

I guess it all depends on the atmosphere of the mod itself.  Right now, the 14th century atmosphere of Dwarf Fortress has been bumped up a few centuries, with technology like firearms being commonplace.  But I think it might be interesting to keep all races' technologies more baseline, except where there is a reason to believe that a given race would invent something earlier, in which case they would jealously guard their secrets, only allowing finished products to go out in trade.

Dwarves are a mining race and explosives are used in mining (though they aren't usable in DF...yet), so it stands to reason that they might study and invent explosives early, and being warlike, would quickly grasp the military applications of gunpowder ahead of time.

Gnomes, in this vision, are fairly schizo-tech, with 21st+ century physics and 14th century chemistry, but there's a good reason for that.  They're kind of supposed to be these timid little nature-friendly OCD clockmakers who like little, complicated things with moving parts, and most of their military technology is supposed to be recent innovations based on the things they had already.  The idea of making bigger explosions being a desirable thing simply never occurred to them in the past, and their medicine is exclusively natural, so their grasp of chemistry is still stuck in medieval stasis.  I only gave them the ability to make gunpowder because the dwarves had gunpowder and tinkering, so it seemed fair, but separating them could make for an interesting cross-racial dynamic.

It also seemed strange that dwarves could make machinery easier than gnomes, although that's pretty much my fault for making the gnomish tech tree so ridiculously complicated.  Then again, automaton robots should be complicated to make.  I'll have to simplify it somewhat for gameplay's sake, but that's besides the point.  (Not sure where golems stand in all of this - my presumption is that they are intended to be at least partially magical in design, so they might not need advanced machinery to work.  Although golem-tech could be made into a combination of dwarven and human magic.)

[Meph]

I for one just wanted to let you guys know that I really appreciate how active you are and how you jump at this chance to redo/convert the mod. I feel a little bit bad, because I'm supposed to be the guy doing most of the stuff, but somehow I can only do a little at the moment.